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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 4:47:30 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		We got the house of horrors......in any case.

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 4:52:09 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
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Status: offline 		OOOOOOOOOO  I love those.  Does it have the freaky mirrors?  How about nude pictures of Madeline Albright?  That would be scary.

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 5:37:04 PM   
MissSCD


Posts: 1185
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline 		Victory in Iraq is to move Bush and his thugs there, and bring our troops home for good. 
 
Regards, MissSCD
 
BTW:  I am ex military so don't go there.

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 5:40:42 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Go where?  Iraq?  I was actually thinking of vacationing in Libya. 

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 6:17:57 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		Victory: The US cutting its losses as best as possible. We lost the hearts and minds of IRAQIs long ago.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 10/9/2008 6:20:11 PM >

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 7:00:27 PM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

We've already done what we set out to do. Remove Sadam and help them establish a government and army. They have both. Our work is done.



You could argue they had a government and an army beforehand. All that has happened is the power has been passed from Sunni to Shia.


Exactly. I never said I agreed with our going there. I was against it from the beginning.

In this specifc thread I was merely stating the mission as it was given in the beginning and saying that we've meet that mission.

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 11:41:30 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Since the world was told that the US and lapdog would depose Saddam and their armies will march into Iraq on palm fronds thrown down by the grateful liberated Iraqis who will spontaneously set up a western style democracy, didn't happen, there will be no victory. The only thing the US can do now is save its face and claim that to be victory.

As one British general said before the invasion and who was told to keep quiet. 'If you boot someone's door in, they aren't going to welcome you in, they are going to fight you. I know I would, regardless of what lousy government was in  power.' But alas, Mr (let me lick your arse) Blair thought Bush and cronies knew best.

Definitely not, there is no victory to be had. The US will stabilize the situation long enough for them to cut and run, claim a victory and when Iraq goes pear shaped again, blame the Iraqis for the deteriorating situation and not the ill considered stupid unnecessary war.

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 11:51:29 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

We've already done what we set out to do. Remove Sadam and help them establish a government and army. They have both. Our work is done.



You could argue they had a government and an army beforehand. All that has happened is the power has been passed from Sunni to Shia.


Exactly. I never said I agreed with our going there. I was against it from the beginning.

In this specifc thread I was merely stating the mission as it was given in the beginning and saying that we've meet that mission.


Agreed, and i am sorry if i appeared critical. As stable as the provinces now seem, i wonder if they will stay that way if the Allies pull out ?

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/10/2008 4:22:40 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		I think we've been victorious on many fronts in Iraq.  We deposed a tyrant and prevented that tyranny from continuing under the leadership of his lunatic sons. 

We have discredited Al Qaida in a major Arab and Muslim country.  The Sunnis have almost entirely withdrawn any alliance with Al-Qaida, and the group was exposed for the brutal bunch of thugs it is.  I consider that an achievement of enormous and historic significance. 

We have helped the Kurds maintain a relatively peaceful area, and they have prospered more than they ever could or would have under Saddam's regime.  Prosperity and stability are the best incentives to avoid radicalism.  The Kurds do have problems, but for the most part they are doing well.  They have us to thank for that. 

We have helped nudge Iraq towards democracy.  If it succeeds, it will be a huge beacon to the rest of the Arab world.  The largest obstacle to all that is the animosity between the Shiites and the Sunnis.  It's the only major obstacle keeping us there. 

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/10/2008 4:35:07 AM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		Victory in Iraq would be learning from our history and our mistakes. GWBush/LBJ, WIlliam Westmoreland/David Petreus, Donald Rumsfield/Robert McNamara,
The Gulf of Tonkein/WMDs.  Sound vaguely familiar to anyone?  My largest fear of this war is a lack of resolve, if it Truly becomes Necessary for us to fight again.
We have wasted lives and political capital over one man's obsession and a misguided world view. Amazingly we have done this twice and perhaps this time we learn?
If we do, then finally we win...an expensive victory but perhaps 2 in 1?

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/10/2008 5:56:15 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I think we've been victorious on many fronts in Iraq.  We deposed a tyrant and prevented that tyranny from continuing under the leadership of his lunatic sons. 


Which tyrant are you going to depose next for the good of the world and why this particular one?

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
We have discredited Al Qaida in a major Arab and Muslim country.  The Sunnis have almost entirely withdrawn any alliance with Al-Qaida, and the group was exposed for the brutal bunch of thugs it is.  I consider that an achievement of enormous and historic significance. 



No you haven't. While most of the Arab world aren't fans of Al Qaida, Al Qaida are still more popular than the USA in the Arab world, for the simple reason, they are fighting the USA while their own government's kow tow to the US.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
We have helped the Kurds maintain a relatively peaceful area, and they have prospered more than they ever could or would have under Saddam's regime.  Prosperity and stability are the best incentives to avoid radicalism.  The Kurds do have problems, but for the most part they are doing well.  They have us to thank for that. 


You obviously don't read the news. Kurdish terrorists are attacking Turkey from out of Iraqi Kurdistan. Only a couple of days ago they killed te\welve Turkish troops. Turkey is threatening to invade Iraqi-Kurdistan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

We have helped nudge Iraq towards democracy.  If it succeeds, it will be a huge beacon to the rest of the Arab world.  The largest obstacle to all that is the animosity between the Shiites and the Sunnis.  It's the only major obstacle keeping us there. 


We are on the cusp of this being tested as the US stops paying the Sunni militias and the Iraqi government decides if it wants to integrate the Sunni militias into the Iraqi police. The Iraqi government indicated it only wanted to integrate 20%, if that is the case, the other 80% will probably return to fighing the US and Iraqi government. The US man in charge of Bagdad said that.

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/10/2008 6:02:24 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

We've already done what we set out to do. Remove Sadam and help them establish a government and army. They have both. Our work is done.



You could argue they had a government and an army beforehand. All that has happened is the power has been passed from Sunni to Shia.


Exactly. I never said I agreed with our going there. I was against it from the beginning.

In this specifc thread I was merely stating the mission as it was given in the beginning and saying that we've meet that mission.


Agreed, and i am sorry if i appeared critical. As stable as the provinces now seem, i wonder if they will stay that way if the Allies pull out ?


Oh hell no. Too much history, too much unresolved issues that run too deeply in the middle eastern mindsets. BUT, it really isn't our responsibility to try and fix it.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/10/2008 1:48:54 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

Which tyrant are you going to depose next for the good of the world and why this particular one?


I'd like to see Kim and all his little minions gone.  I guess we should just follow your logic and allow people to do whatever they want all over the world.  Now c'mon respond with your usual answer.  We're evil, and those murderous, totalitarian regimes would stop all their mischief if we'd leave them alone, right? 

quote:

No you haven't. While most of the Arab world aren't fans of Al Qaida, Al Qaida are still more popular than the USA in the Arab world, for the simple reason, they are fighting the USA while their own government's kow tow to the US.


Yeah, that's why the native Sunnis in Iraq started killing the SOBs.  We have discredited them, and their tactics inside Iraq backfired. 

quote:

You obviously don't read the news. Kurdish terrorists are attacking Turkey from out of Iraqi Kurdistan. Only a couple of days ago they killed te\welve Turkish troops. Turkey is threatening to invade Iraqi-Kurdistan.


I have read the news.  It's obvious you ignore most of the news when it doesn't fit into your worldview.  The Kurdish region is prospering economically, and they have not seen anywhere near the violence of the Sunni and Shiite regions of Iraq.  I said they had problems; I was alluding to their problems with PKK terrorists.  Yes, they have to deal with it.  Most of the Kurds do not follow their ideology.  Yes we have to do what we can to keep the Turks from destabilizing the area.  Nothing is perfect, but apparently you expect it to be. 

quote:

We are on the cusp of this being tested as the US stops paying the Sunni militias and the Iraqi government decides if it wants to integrate the Sunni militias into the Iraqi police. The Iraqi government indicated it only wanted to integrate 20%, if that is the case, the other 80% will probably return to fighing the US and Iraqi government. The US man in charge of Bagdad said that.


Yes and that's up to them.  If you're looking for perfection in any regime change, you won't find it anywhere.   

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 10/10/2008 1:49:31 PM >

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/10/2008 2:01:32 PM   
corysub


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Status: offline 		This question of "how do you define victory in Iraq has taken over from "why is the sky blue mommy"....I guess the answer depends on who is be asked the question.  Pelosi and Reid wanted to leave a year ago...along with Jack Murtha (whatever happened to him?).  I guess they would say that defeat was a victory.  Obama was in their camp but has since backpeddled to a  more orderly retreat strategy.

Biden wanted to break up Iraq into three countries...another answer to what is victory in Iraq from a guy who hasn't been to clever over his decades in the Senate.

Sarah Palin can see Iraq from her porch....or was that Russia...

I kinda go along with Bush on this one...stabilizing the country, leaving it with a government able to take charge and a military able to handle internal problems.  MacArthur wrote the book on this in how he managed Japan...Obviously, Iraq is not the homogenous religious group that Japan was ...but some of the basic tenants should and are working...led by the surge strategy earlier this year.

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/10/2008 2:31:10 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

Oh hell no. Too much history, too much unresolved issues that run too deeply in the middle eastern mindsets. BUT, it really isn't our responsibility to try and fix it.


Well, you know about Colin Powell's Pottery Barn rule, don't you.

I just watched Frontline's expose on the IRAQ war last night, the part concentrating on the after invasion decision-making --- post looting.

Here is what I gleamed.

1. Paul Bremer was chosen to lead the after war efforts in IRAQ. He didn't speak Arabic and had no background in Middle Eastern affairs. Count this as Mistake #1.

2. Mistake #2: De-Baathification was ordered by Bremer and the policy wonks in DC. Those in IRAQ, including the leading US General at the time, opposed this move warning it would drive 30,000-50,000 IRAQIs underground.

3. Mistake #3: Disbanding the IRAQI army. Bremer and Co. also made this call despite opposition from the US military and State Department officials stationed in IRAQ.

Moves 2-3 primed the pump for a massive IRAQI resistance.

4. When the Resistance got started with major bombing campaigns, Rumsfeldt and Cheney did not recognize it for what it was. Also, the US military never had any contingency plan for to fight a resistance. Mistake #4.

5. Having no plan or idea that the US might experience an insurgency, the US had no intelligence about it. Mistake #5.

6. No intelligence lead Rumsfeldt and Co. to concoct Abu Ghraib. Mistake #6.

7. Rumsfeldt then went with a "small footprint" policy to turn over IRAQI leadership to the IRAQIs so that the US could withdraw. But, the small footprint plan emboldened the new insurgency -- and IRAQ devolved into chaos, mayhem, and war. Mistake #6.

8. Rice tried to push for the removal of the small footprint model -- in favor of a "take, hold, and rebuild" model to push out the insurgents proactively.

9. Rice was defeated.

10. Rice's plan was later adopted under BUSH's surge. Good Decision.

------

Fall Guys:

#1 George Tenet was blamed for no WMDs. No analysis, though, was conducted on the failure of the US intelligence and decision-making system.

#2 Colin Powell was asked to resign. Rice took his spot.

#3 Rumsfeldt was fired.

#4 Cheney's influence was downgraded while Rice's influence was upgraded.

-------

After the De-Bathification order and the order to disband the IRAQI army, the whole US Military High Command changed over. Franks retired, and others got out.

There was then great turnover until David Petraeus was assigned.

-------

The IRAQI elections did not produce a good leader over whom to turn authority. Sunnis boycotted the elections altogether.

-----

The entire process showed the Bush administration to be aversive to facts, ideologically driven, and slow to adapt. Loyalty was rewarded over competence. The planning of administering the peace after the war was criminally negligent.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 10/10/2008 2:35:28 PM >

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/10/2008 2:40:49 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

I kinda go along with Bush on this one...stabilizing the country, leaving it with a government able to take charge and a military able to handle internal problems. 

As soon as the allied forces leave Iraq there will be a lovely but short period of calm before the Sunni/Shiite/Kurd civil war engulfs Iraq.  Aside from eternal occupation, there isn't anything the allies can do to stop this.  There will be no 'victory' in Iraq, not for anyone.

~stef


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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/10/2008 2:46:26 PM   
NumberSix


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Status: offline 		stef, I agree with you 100% of course, with the additional general adjurement that is unless Iran steps in; in a very big way, (which they might) in which case we have really, really, really, really, really fucked the area.

Ron 

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/10/2008 2:53:54 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		ya

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/10/2008 4:22:53 PM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

This question of "how do you define victory in Iraq has taken over from "why is the sky blue mommy"....I guess the answer depends on who is be asked the question.  Pelosi and Reid wanted to leave a year ago...along with Jack Murtha (whatever happened to him?).  I guess they would say that defeat was a victory.  Obama was in their camp but has since backpeddled to a  more orderly retreat strategy.

Biden wanted to break up Iraq into three countries...another answer to what is victory in Iraq from a guy who hasn't been to clever over his decades in the Senate.

Sarah Palin can see Iraq from her porch....or was that Russia...

I kinda go along with Bush on this one...stabilizing the country, leaving it with a government able to take charge and a military able to handle internal problems.  MacArthur wrote the book on this in how he managed Japan...Obviously, Iraq is not the homogenous religious group that Japan was ...but some of the basic tenants should and are working...led by the surge strategy earlier this year.


Well why don't we go back to 2003 and find the answer.  We were going there there to find and destroy the WMD's that Saddam had. 

That was our mission.  Our one and only goal. 

We went. 

He didn't have any.

What the hell are we still doing there?

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/10/2008 4:30:15 PM >

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/10/2008 6:55:34 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		~FR~

Wait. Didn't we already accomplish this mission?

My President told me so.

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