CanisMajor
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Joined: 9/2/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Twice
does a Dom have the right to tell his sub to do something s/he thinks is plain, flat-out WRONG? Not "doesn't like" but "firmly believes makes her a worse person" and so on.
Yes, from my perspective a dom does have that right. Here's two scenarios that illustrate situations in which it would clearly not be wrong of the dom to do this:
1) The dom does not know the order is something the sub thinks is "plain, flat-out wrong," because the dom is not a mind-reader and the sub hasn't disclosed the fact. In such a situation, not only is the dom within their rights as commonly understood, but the dom isn't even doing anything in the least bit edgy or inappropriate. (Of course they would be, if they pressed the issue after figuring out the facts.)
2) The dom knows the order is to do something the sub "firmly believes makes her a worse person," but knows the sub well and knows (to some reasonable amount of certainty) that the order, if obeyed, will in fact make the sub a better person, not a worse one. I have given many orders that incite strong anxiety in canisminor because she believes following them makes her a worse person (or similar nonsense), but which, when followed, teach her that her anxiety is a barrier to her own happiness or her own ability to live a life consistent with her moral principles, and not a sign that she's prone to violate them. (Moral principles, and the rules of conduct we hold to, are two different things, and can sometimes be in conflict. My sub has good principles, but she also has baggage in the form of arbitrary rules from her upbringing which sometimes interfere with her acting on her principles.)
Now the situation you bring up is different from either of these. The story as you tell it has the dominant continuing to press, despite the resistance of the sub. This might have been because the dom believed he was in a 'scenario two' type situation (i.e., dom not not bad, though apparently not all that bright). It might also have been because the dom was not willing to honor past negotiations (dom bad).
I think that negotiation is a fairly continuous thing within a relationship; as we learn more about the sub, we understand better what her limits are, and which ones we can press on. Maybe this dom doesn't agree (dom inexperienced? or just really different from me?). Or maybe this dom was getting off on producing a very insecure sub (dom not bad, if this was negotiated at some point; otherwise, dom bad). Or maybe the dom started out in 'scenario one,' but was too stubborn to acknowledge he'd hit a limit, and so continued the pressure to save face (dom bad). Who knows.
One point, however, is that you described a specific scenario - a dom that pressed the order after it was resisted, to the point of apparent distress - and from that carefully defined scenario you then jumped to a very broad question - does a dom have some right or other. The question is a non-sequitur; it doesn't take into account the circumstance that motivated it. Sometimes subs ask these kinds of questions in an effort to manipulate a dom, or make a dom look bad. There are answers to your question, but your question has very little to do with the situation described, at least until there is far more information available, including information from the dom.
quote:
What about BIG things, like if she is strongly pro-life and he gets her pregnant and orders an abortion. Now, I see that she should have a say over something that major, but it IS his child, too, and he IS the dominant.... Personally, I see this particular situation as a total abuse of his power if he orders that and the relationship should end...
I see this very differently. What was negotiated from the first?
If there was no discussion of this possibility from the first, both the dom and sub have acted very irresponsibly, and if the pregnancy is to be dealt with in a mature way, heavy demands will be made of sub and dom if they are to overcome their conflicts from this point on. Without negotiation, the dom has no "power," and what to do (with the dom expressing a preference for abortion) is just an argument. A big one, admittedly. But it cannot be abuse of power.
If it was negotiated that abortion would be a response to this circumstance, and the sub is not honoring that, then there would seem to be a moral problem on the sub's side. Abandonment (meaning the relationship ends suddenly, and on the unilateral decision of one party) in this context is every bit as abusive as a wife-beater's punch to his spouse's face - it is an action intended to penalize and lash out at the victim. Better ways to do things: The sub needs to negotiate honestly, and not obscure his or her true morals by way of making it more likely to hook up with a dom. Or, as a sub's beliefs and values change, this needs to be disclosed and such issues need to be re-negotiated. Or, a sub needs to understand that a seemingly arbitrary change of mind once the circumstance becomes current does not necessarily entitle the sub to the moral high ground.
If, on the other hand, the sub fully disclosed their feelings to the dom from the get-go, then obviously any pressure from the dom towards abortion would be highly improper, and probably a clear abuse of power as you say. Abandonment - as a tactic to escape abuse - then becomes the lesser of two evils.
The principle here is that negotiation needs to be especially open and honest communication, that renegotiation needs to occur as beliefs change, and both sides need to respect what was negotiated. How and whether the individuals follow these principles would determine which one was being abusive, if any.
(BTW, I've read the OP, but very little that followed, so if there's been a bunch of new information posted on the specific scenario's, I've missed it. I found the original questions to be sufficiently stimulating, and had limited time to read and post, so didn't go much further.)
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The Big Dog
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RE: Morals - 
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