quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

I understand being frustrated when a submissive fails to obey or doesn't perform well, at first.  And I would agree that I would lose interest very quickly in a man who failed me in some way and tried to blow it off or acted as if it did not matter; this is why I don't waste time on people who "flake out" on appointments or dates, regardless of what the dynamic was supposed to be.  People who waste my time are damn near mortal enemies, to my way of thinking--I have absolutely no time in my life to waste.

On the other hand, once I am in a relationship, I feel that patience is important.  There are very few people who are perfect "naturals" at submission, especially if they are younger and do not have a lot of life experience in the daily tasks of household management--and even people who are very experienced at cooking, cleaning and organizing a household the way THEY might prefer, or the way a former dominant preferred, that doesn't mean they instantly know the way I like things done.  It takes time to train a person to please and serve me--but it's worth it if the submissive truly feels that my happiness and pleasure are a great reward.

I am not a super-strict or harsh mistress, but the desire to please and to serve has to be there.  It sounds to me like you're talking about men who pay lip service to submission, or who want to submit conditionally (i.e., when they feel horny), but who reject even a small amount of control on YOUR terms.  And obviously I would agree that fake and bad submissives suck.  But that doesn't mean that there aren't good ones. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Oh - I agree. There are some wonderful ones. I guess I'm thinking about, though, how unrealistic expectations, or not giving enough chances, or being too cynical, might result in some misguided subs being cast aside. 

quote:

 I think it's tough for a femdom though, on a certain level, because if a man says he is interested in submitting and is up for it, but he doesn't follow simple and clear commands out of the gate, it undermines her role.  She only has a couple of options. End it, give him more chances, refine the instructions and find out where the problem is, etc.  But to me, the moment a woman starts compromising her own rules and giving lots of extra chances, she is losing credibility.  The idea of "dominance" becomes a joke at that point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Maybe the emphasis is wrong here.  There are two aspects: willingness to please, sure, but there's also "training". 

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I think in my havering way I was agreeing with you, Fern.  But when I put emphasis on the idea of training (rather than 'communication'), I'm suggesting that at the outset he needs to be taught an impulse to do what he's told, whether he likes it or not.  Firstly, I'm assuming the proportion of orders he won't like will be a lot greater than the number of those he will like. Secondly, the word "impulse" is crucial. I'm not talking about a higher-level brain function.  The reason soldiers are drilled is so that they learn a base-level instinct to obey orders almost without thinking.

Again, though, it's all theory, obviously.  I'm not a Domme (and it therefore feels more than weird my saying anything about this subject at all) , though I know a fair bit about teaching teenagers and adults in colleges and universities.  The primary-level stuff that they all have to learn is taught in an entirely different way to the later-level matter.  But, I freely admit it mightn't be possible to transpose a teaching method from the one context to the other.   :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Femdoms, do you just brush off and ignore if a new submissive doesn't follow the smaller details and consistenly says he forgot?  Are you anal when your friends (non kinky) are flaky, do they get more slack?  Does the level of intensity/romance impact your level of expectation? Does it just depend on what the instructions are?  Does it depend on how much you LIKE the guy?  If you give a guy instructions and he flakes half the time, but you are only a LITTLE into him, do you not care and let it go, but if you REALLY like a guy do you give him less or more leeway?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Oh lord, Akasha, I'll try to answer, but I feel myself moving more and more into an area I know nothing about from direct experience.  Suggesting to a Domme how she should treat a sub feels inherently a tad wrong to me!

Yes, of course, for a sub to act in the way you've said is inconsiderate and I do think it shows a lack of willingness.  In your position I'd feel let down and maybe insulted.  A second chance?  Well, from this sub's point of view your situation doesn't look irredeemable.

The only thing I can talk about with much confidence is myself, here, obviously.  I'd expect to get things wrong at first for various reasons - including lack of willingness - but, then, after misdemeanours, get properly shown (even punished) for them.  A sort of "zero tolerance" policy, if you like.  Clear education in your "ground rules" Maybe even to the point of micromanagement.  Later's the time to be relaxed, not at the start.   At the start, my head has to be shown clearly where it should be.  But that's just me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Do you give a sub like this a second chance? If so, what kind of message does that send? Sure, it's ok for me to clear my schedule to accommodate you, and have you fall asleep because you aren't interested/working hard enough to stay on your feet or remain alert?  Or is it just simple human error, no big deal, who cares? 

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Wrong. I can't do that. This is the self analysis I am having. I realize that if a man is engaging a power dynamic with me and wants to follow commands, he has to follow them all. He can't only follow the ones that are convenient or fun. It has nothing to do with how attracted I am to him, how much I care about him, or how much he rocks my world - I can be more attracted to a "bottom," and if he forgets to do what I asked (casually, as a friend), I just don't mind it. But if I give an *instruction* to a submissive, no matter how small, and he blows it off or "forgets," it's irritating. I guess the reality is that I can't be obeyed partially, it must be all or nothing.