A delicate question (Full Version)

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missturbation -> A delicate question (10/16/2008 9:28:33 AM)

*Disclaimer* I know this thread is going to upset some and i apologise in advance for that. I would also like to make it clear that i am NOT in any way, shape or form advocating abusive behaviour.
 
Quite a few subs / slaves i know who have been in abusive relationshios in the past, have their own theories about how they came to end up in the world of BDSM. Most of their theories seem to have a common theme. The idea that BDSM is a healthy way to channel their needs compared to the unhealthiness of having their needs fulfilled in an abusive relationship.
 
*Disclaimer* I'm not declaring that all subs / slaves feel this way about past abusive relationships in any way, shape or form. I am just speaking for myself and a select few i have discussed this with.
 
For those that do feel the way i have described, i have to wonder to what extent did they get their needs met in an abusive relationship?
 
Also and this is the delicate bit which i am trying to word carefully but know i will offend someone with, how were the feelings involved in an abusive relationship compared to the feelings in a BDSM relationship?
 
To try and explain my last question a little. I felt different about the beatings i recieved nonconsensually to those i recieve consensually. I got different things from the nonconsensual to what i get from the consensual, good and bad. I don't want to go any further into my feelings right now as i don't want this thread to be about me. I'm genuinely interested in the thoughts of others on this.
 
Also i know this thread is aimed at subs /slaves but if any D types have experiences, thoughts to share they are of course more than welcome.
 
Just to reiterate again i am in no way, shape or form advocating abuse of any kind.
 



WinsomeDefiance -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 9:47:02 AM)

I've posted in the past, references to having left an abusive, controlling husband, although I prefer not to speak of it much because of the years I worked NOT to be a victim.  However, your question did strike a chord with me and I felt compelled....inspired? to write a response.

When I first became involved with BDSM, it was about 6 months or so after I had left my husband.  I became enamoured with the concept of negotiating and was titillated by the erotic taboo of slavery, although the reality of it offended my sensibilities.  My first relationship in the BDSM realm was with a sadist, who was brilliant at conditioning one to enjoy pain, despite my never have been nor actually being a masochist - per se.  With him, I believe I was able to explore the darker sides of emotional and physical pain while feeling more in control of my own needs.  It was cathartic in a way I find difficult to describe.  It isn't what I would recommend to others as a form of therapy, but I do believe it helped me realize my own empowerment.  He encouraged me to top, as well and taught me a great deal about the basics of S/M, but more so, the relationship helped me view more clearly what was abuse, and what was acceptable to me, and through that relationship and the concepts of BDSM, I learned to stand up for myself.  I still struggle with that at times, because it is part of my nature to be passive and a people pleaser.  Learning to stand up for myself, and how to recognize abuse for myself - I was able to say to my boyfriend, what I never would have dreamed of saying to my husband, "I didn't sign up for this, and won't accept it for myself." 

It wasn't the healthiest relationship I'd ever been in because I left one abusive, controlling alcoholic and became involved with a sadistic, alcoholic.  Sort of like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire, but it was a cleansing fire.  I don't look back on that relationship with resentment and find myself greatful for the experience. 

I'd write more, but my lunch break is over and back to work I go.

WinD



Daes -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 9:51:16 AM)

This is just my experience - my ex was not extremely abusive, but he was, and the fullfillment I get from D/s activities is incomparible. Though I was submissive even before I met him and did not engage in any bdsm activities with him, he was nilla.

In an abusive relationship, things are happening to you that you do not want - some of the activities may also occur in a D/s relationship but you have to look at the Context in which these things are happening. It's all about context and the intent behind words and actions when these things are done. None of my needs were met in that relationship. Basic or otherwise (otherwise including anything under the bdsm umbrella).. and Yes, I said basic.. At one point I had to go without food... and not because we didn't have any...

For me those feelings are on completely different planes. Fear, worthlessness, guilt, anguish... the feeling of being completely trapped and alone. Through my submission I feel pride, joy, fullfillment, love... Ya, not comparible. I was holding on until there was nothing left to hold onto - then I finally realized that I wasn't happy, and I deserved happiness.

I've met people that use bdsm relationships as a "healthy" outlet rather than being with an abusive partner but the problem with that is that a partner in a bdsm relationships CAN also be abusive and you have to figure out what constitutes as abuse and what you are getting out of an abusive relationship. One must also realize that controlling behavior can also be unhealthy! If a masochistic is turning to bdsm instead of being in an abusive relationship, they need to have a better understanding of their masochistic and/or emotional  needs, and  figure out what is acceptable and unacceptable by figuring out ^ what constitutes as abusive/controlling behavior.

Just because someone is into bdsm doesn't mean they can't Also be abusive and some people don't realize this.

Also, if someone is turning to bdsm because they are sadistic, I can understand that as long as they can Control their needs. If they are turning to bdsm Instead of abusing someone, they need Therapy. Being a sadist who doesnt understand consensuality is dangerous to any potential masochistic partner.



IvyMorgan -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 10:17:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

*Disclaimer* I know this thread is going to upset some and i apologise in advance for that. I would also like to make it clear that i am NOT in any way, shape or form advocating abusive behaviour.
 
Quite a few subs / slaves i know who have been in abusive relationshios in the past, have their own theories about how they came to end up in the world of BDSM. Most of their theories seem to have a common theme. The idea that BDSM is a healthy way to channel their needs compared to the unhealthiness of having their needs fulfilled in an abusive relationship.

 
The longer I spend in therapy, the more it is becoming clear that the home I grew up in, and still live in now (circumstances beyound my control, *grumble*) was and is abusive.  I'm not sure, however, misst, that I fit into your group of people who have a "need" resulting from/fulfilled by this abuse that is also fulfilled by kink.

From my perspective, it is far easier to see that, early sexual encouters, exploits, experiences etc, were very violent, aggressive, and characterised by a distinct difference in level of power and control between the parties.  This is how I *grew up* thinking sex should be, and so, I have come to kink because it fits the way I view the world naturally.  Whether I would view the world that way without those early experiences, is a relativly, to my mind (but not to those giving me therapy) moot point.

 
quote:

Also and this is the delicate bit which i am trying to word carefully but know i will offend someone with, how were the feelings involved in an abusive relationship compared to the feelings in a BDSM relationship?

In a kink relationship (that is working for me) I feel nurtured, cared for, valued, and loved.  I feel special, like for a few moments I am someone's world, and I carry that feeling day-to-day, improving my self image/worth.  I feel like I matter, and that, when push comes to shove and I can't do it on my own, I have someone to go to.

I felt none of those feelings about my early sexual experiences, where I guess "shame" would be the predominant emotion of the time, whilst now I feel regret, hurt, elements of anger.

Incidentally, I feel none of the above in the abusive relationship either, where I internalise my issues and problems, feel like I have no support, no caring, no people who are willing to sit down with me and listen while I talk through what's going on for me, like I am useful only in so far as I can provide things that are needed/wanted/valued by those around me (in terms of chores/material, tangible things).  I feel like, as a person, I matter very little, anyone could do what I do, afterall.
 
I feel the need to clarify, that this is not a physically abusive environment, and when I have been hit (which has not been since I was a child) even those experiences were more emotionally abusive than physically so.  My mother bursting into tears because she "hurt" so much at needing to discipline in such a way, etc.



akisha -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 10:32:05 AM)

I was never in a physically abusive relationship but I kept choosing Domineering men instead of Dominant men.  I had a great D/s relationship when i was not the age of majority, and when that ended i had no idea how to find other Domiant partners, and mistakenly figured controlling, pushy manilpulating men were Dominant. lmao

I don;t think people craving abuse enter into D/s relationships on average, but i think alot of people craving a D/s relationship find them selves in an abusive relationship by mistaking one for the other.






sublizzie -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 10:36:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
For those that do feel the way i have described, i have to wonder to what extent did they get their needs met in an abusive relationship?
 
Also and this is the delicate bit which i am trying to word carefully but know i will offend someone with, how were the feelings involved in an abusive relationship compared to the feelings in a BDSM relationship? 


Last question first, the feelings are totally different. In fact, the difference is what helps me know that what I have today is healthy since I feel so much different than I did in my marriage. My ex was completely narcissistic. My Dom is not. My ex saw no reason to consider anyone's needs when he had wants. My Dom sees to my needs AND my wants (a completely foreign concept to me!). Etc, etc, etc.

I am a service-oriented submissive. My needs were over-met in my marriage because the more I did for him the better he liked it. I could serve to my heart's content and beyond. I was very good at doing for him. It met my need to serve. It did not meet my need to be loved, cared for, supported, or any other needs.

In this relationship my service is greeted with joy, not expectation and demanding. He provides me with service opportunities that meet his needs and mine. He also gives me what I need to be fulfilled in other aspects of my life. The difference is so immense I'm not sure how to describe it adequately.



sublizzie -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 10:38:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha
I don;t think people craving abuse enter into D/s relationships on average, but i think alot of people craving a D/s relationship find them selves in an abusive relationship by mistaking one for the other.


From my experience, I would agree.



youngsubgeoff -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 10:44:17 AM)

One thing. Before my first D/s relationship, I was a fairly happy, well adjusted guy. I had a pretty happy childhood, a few bumps and bruises sure, but none the worse for wear. At 18, I met my first mistress. I was repeatedly abused, physically, mentally, emotionally and sexually. Thankfully, Ive had enough perspective to realize that not everyone calling themselves a master or mistress is abusive. Does that mean I am completly healed? No. Will I ever be? Probably not. But you push on. Maybe its that "faith" thing. 



missturbation -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 10:47:55 AM)

I appreciate the thoughts and responses of everyone so far.
 
I didn't start this thread to discuss abuse per se though. I know that i cant control the direction that a thread goes in but would really appreciate if we could stick to the questions asked.
 
For those that do feel the way i have described, i have to wonder to what extent did they get their needs met in an abusive relationship?


Also and this is the delicate bit which i am trying to word carefully but know i will offend someone with, how were the feelings involved in an abusive relationship compared to the feelings in a BDSM relationship?



JustDarkness -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 10:54:16 AM)

quote:

In a kink relationship (that is working for me) I feel nurtured, cared for, valued, and loved.


I have asked some subs in the past and got the same answer.
But mmm..personaly...the first time I would have problems punishing an abused sub or slave. (of course you talk about it..)
I was curious though..how a sub...feels the punishment...does it give flashbacks? Does it for some seem normal to be punished, because of the past?
(gladly  it is not about punishment ofcourse the lifestyle..but it can happen)



IrishMist -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 11:21:08 AM)

quote:

For those that do feel the way i have described, i have to wonder to what extent did they get their needs met in an abusive relationship?

I am going to refer to another thread that was on here not too long ago; and what I said in that thread
http://www.collarchat.com/m_1970413/mpage_19/tm.htm

this is only part of what I had said in there, but the same still would apply here
quote:

  Because sometimes…SOMETIMES…unhealthy and destructive is actually healthy and cleansing for the soul. And sometimes, it can save a life; in more ways than one.





WinsomeDefiance -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 12:02:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha
I don;t think people craving abuse enter into D/s relationships on average, but i think alot of people craving a D/s relationship find them selves in an abusive relationship by mistaking one for the other.


From my experience, I would agree.


I agree as well. 

When I became involved in BDSM, I wasn't looking for a controlled form of abuse, I was looking for a way to find that control and discipline I felt in my marriage, without the abuse.  It just so happened that with some new perspective came some clarity and I was quicker to recognize what was abusive, and what I needed out of a relationship which was control, discipline and purpose - the kinky sex was just a bonus. 



IvyMorgan -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 12:11:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

In a kink relationship (that is working for me) I feel nurtured, cared for, valued, and loved.


I have asked some subs in the past and got the same answer.
But mmm..personaly...the first time I would have problems punishing an abused sub or slave. (of course you talk about it..)
I was curious though..how a sub...feels the punishment...does it give flashbacks? Does it for some seem normal to be punished, because of the past?
(gladly  it is not about punishment ofcourse the lifestyle..but it can happen)
I have no problem being punished.  Granted, it rarely happens, on the basis that I talk about stuff, communicate when I'm having difficulties etc.  In fact, the last time, was miscommunication on his part and then a general screw up by him.  We agreed a ground rule from there on out... if you're going to punish me, you have to say why before you start.  Could have saved myself 26 with the singapore if we'd done that *before* (esp given I knew he didn't know...)

I'm more likely to get flashbacks from being tied in a certain way, or touched in a certain way, than from a punishment.  Again, it's all about talking about it.  (T was very sweet about the whole "what shouldn't I do" thing, and accepting the list given as being rather weird but ok "don't touch my nose" was on the list, for example).

It's not "normal" to be punished, as in, I don't walk through life expecting to be beaten for screwing up, but, it is an accepted part of my relationships, and something that I know is not enjoyable for either party, and so both sides of the slash work to make sure it doesn't have to happen.



ranja -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 12:17:24 PM)

I like to reply, I have only just recently started to think about these things myself.
The one long term relationship I had before I met my Husband was with a very jealous boyfriend who did not trust me and interrogated me about every minute of my life and wanted to isolate and totally control me…I spend 4 years trying to convince him he that I would be faithful and trying to ‘help’ him get a better grip on reality as I saw it… I thought at the time that I really loved this guy but everything between us was such a struggle. I did not know why I battled on for so long and I did not really think I was getting anything out of it either, at the same time I was drawn into it and in a way I liked the drama.
Eventually I had no choice but to leave him, the relationship was stifling and on top of that I found out he had been cheating on me for ages, jeez, still I did not like to split.
 
I think this bad experience made me too careful and so it took me 16 years before I could truly confide in my Husband, but finally I did and we decided to enter kink into our relationship. Now I find myself finally daring to admit that indeed really I am a slut and enjoy stuff my ancient ex would have adored to be a very active part off.
What totally jars with one person can be totally right with another…I think the difference is whether the trust is there…if I can not whole heartedly trust my partner to have my best interests at heart, consequently I hold back and no matter how much I would like to, I can not give enough to be satisfied. Ultimately the difference has been myself; my own confidence.



JustDarkness -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 12:17:33 PM)

ty for explaining soemthing so personal.



moonvine -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 12:19:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I appreciate the thoughts and responses of everyone so far.
 
I didn't start this thread to discuss abuse per se though. I know that i cant control the direction that a thread goes in but would really appreciate if we could stick to the questions asked.
 
For those that do feel the way i have described, i have to wonder to what extent did they get their needs met in an abusive relationship?


Also and this is the delicate bit which i am trying to word carefully but know i will offend someone with, how were the feelings involved in an abusive relationship compared to the feelings in a BDSM relationship?



My story is a little bit different I guess.  I was involved in an abusive relationship with a guy after I was involved in BDSM.  He was and is a predator.  He was emotionally abusive (and not just to me, to his mother, to his children, to his multiple ex-wives).  Abusive men are on the surface very charming. 

I did not get my needs met at all, but he threatened to kill me and dispose of my body in a place where it would not be found, so I was afraid to leave. 

The feelings involved were very different - fear (not of a good kind, but many kinds of bad) - fear that he actually would kill me, and later, fear that he wouldn't.  Fear that I was worthless and couldn't make it on my own.  Fear that he would hurt/kill my animals.  I cried every day, somewhere in private, where my tears would not annoy or anger him.

In a BDSM relationship I feel owned, cherished, happy, dare I say loved?  Just night and day.



awashoflife -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 12:24:36 PM)

Warning, what follows is true. There is happiness in the end and somehow, I think it was worth it, it made me who I am.

I am old enough that the really sick things people do to each other was hushed up, not hyped 24 hr a day by Nancy Grace. Nancy always forgets to talk about the other kids in the house and there almost always are. Who do you think shoved food under the closet door in the basement and dumped the shit bowl? Not the parents. The other duties of the position include going to school and making damn sure everybody thinks things are just fine.

Looking back, I see how easy I was to control. I always knew what the "or else" could be. I lived by one rule that my parents reinforced. I could take any abuse, no matter how extreme because the other choice was worse. When the most important thing in the world is to endure anything to avoid even worse and against all odds, you actually succeed, it instills a certain pride. Few people have the absolute certainty that I do that nothing can break me. Except for this: I was a horrible caretaker for my siblings behind the door. Whenever I could get away with it, I passed the blame and a lot of the punishment on to ones who could not get away.

Cain didn't think he was his brothers keeper. I had no excuse.

It ended when I was 14. No one would prosecute me but I know that sure as hell I'm guilty, Even worse was the pride. I was not a victim, I survived damn it! Even the foster homes only did things to my body, they couldn't possibly hurt my soul the way I needed, craved and deserved.

I knew there were people who liked to hurt others and I dreamed of finding one who would make me suffer, intense enough and long enough to cleanse me. When I finally met my Mistress, at first she was delighted to find a painslut who never said no and always asked for more. This wonderful woman always worked from love and eventually I stopped lying about my past and told her the truth. I know that if God is ever short on compassion, he just asks her for help. She showed me that I could never be punished enough, I would never break. Instead, she went to my darkest fear and made me care for her other slaves. Slowly, she lead me into being the Master. I was just pleasing her, she was just showing me the meaning of love.

It is hard to describe the first time it all made sense. I was swinging the flogger as she directed while she was holding his head and talking to him softly. He broke through and in the burst of energy and love and acceptance, I saw myself as my Father and as my younger self being hit. And saw myself/the slave bask in the love, completeness, forgiveness as he sobbed into her cradling arms. I saw why she wanted me to do what I most feared. I am not my parents, I choose to nurture where they chose to destroy.

There are some crimes for which punishment is not enough. Only atonement can wash it away. To atone, to give with all your heart that which should have been given and was not. There is no punishment for what I did not do as my brothers keeper. For me there is no punishment but I have the chance to atone.

Many Masters talk about leading slaves to fullest potential as slaves. I lead towards their fullest potential as souls no matter where it lies. Sometimes all I can pay of my debt is a small push for a person passing through my life, others have taken many years of slow patient support. Each of those who have submitted to me each wash another layer of the stain from my soul. Every small step in the right direction, every breakthrough explosion of joy that they experience makes Mistress smile down from heaven, wipes the tears of the little soul beside her and pardons my crimes.

Some day I will die. I know that the beam of the great balance will groan under the weight of my sins. With every bit of my heart, I am my brothers keeper. I know my duty to those in my care. Some days, I even dare to think that that big balance beam is getting level.



SimplyMichael -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 12:26:39 PM)

Look at children, if they don't get "good" attention, they will settle for and even strive for negative attention.  That negative attention feeds them at a core level but it isn't healthy because it traps them in a spiral of needing to be bad or being around bad/abusive/domineering people to get fed.

Reprogramming yourself to prefer AND accept good attention is hard, very very hard.  On some level that is an issue I am working on now, my upbringing/training as a child was to get my "warm fuzzies" by talking about doing things rather than actually doing them.  I am working hard to keep the good parts of that (my ideas tend to be better than most peoples) and yet reprogram myself to want/need/strive for the warm fuzzies that come with completing something (which is often less than other peoples).

At first glance, being in an abusive relationship has many surface similarities to being in a D/s one.  However, the reality is vastly VASTLY different.  In a bad one, the spiral is downward, in a good one, the emotional spiral is upward.

The sad part is when you don't know any different you can't "see" how the two relationships are different.  It is like one of those 3d dot pictures where you can't see the image until you see the image and then it becomes hard not to see the image.  I can see the issues other people have that I myself have worked through as clear as day, however, the ones I haven't yet seen in myself I can't yet see in others.




SimplyMichael -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 12:28:56 PM)

quote:

awashoflife


I am truly humbled by you, thank you deeply for sharing yourself with us.



MistressOfGa -> RE: A delicate question (10/16/2008 1:23:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: youngsubgeoff

One thing. Before my first D/s relationship, I was a fairly happy, well adjusted guy. I had a pretty happy childhood, a few bumps and bruises sure, but none the worse for wear. At 18, I met my first mistress. I was repeatedly abused, physically, mentally, emotionally and sexually. Thankfully, Ive had enough perspective to realize that not everyone calling themselves a master or mistress is abusive. Does that mean I am completly healed? No. Will I ever be? Probably not. But you push on. Maybe its that "faith" thing. 


<Hugs my pet>



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