RE: Old Gaurd

RE: Old Gaurd (Full Version)

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JustDarkness -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 6:23:33 AM)
and with out violence gladly ;)

Rever -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 6:39:43 AM)
I actly got a link to a picture of a derailed train, for when the thread gets derailed, I'm actly foaming at the mouth to post it

JustDarkness -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 6:42:08 AM)
Not needed. I think you got soem very interesting thoughts and links. At least hat is my opinion..a lott of reading ahead.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 7:07:10 AM)
One must remember, society as a whole was more rigid and respectful back in the 1950's and 60's and "old guard" reflected and in many ways fetishized all that. However, anyone who has ever watched or read "Catch 22" certainly doesn't think the military was perfect and considering the dysfunction so present and so undealt with during those years, I cannot imagine that that was not reflected in the day to day culture of the scene back then. However, don't read any of that as a slam or my denigrating them, I just object to the whole concept of "back then things were great and they have all gone to shit today" a line usually spouted by those who cling to some mythical concept of "old guard" to which they of course are the most model representations of.

lydwina -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 7:15:29 AM)
I do at times see your point. I know I was uninformed coming in but not as clueless as some I have come across. I admire the structure of the controversial old guard ways.While I don't fit in with a lot of the rules (I have come to find out that I am a switch rather than a submissive), I find that there is much that can be used today. I don't think that anything which promotes exclusivity as the old guard rules promote will be popular but it is sometimes necessary to maintain order.

JewAndCelt -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 7:22:43 AM)
I personally think it's right up there with the whole 'True Dominant' schtick.

thetammyjo -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 8:10:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustDarkness quote: If you aren't gay and you weren't a veteran of WWII I can't consider you "Old Guard". if everything stops afther the founders died...then we wouldn't have much left in the world ps Elegant get your helmet ;) You can say you were trained "Old Guard" or use "Old Guard" but just because I study the ancient world and use some of the ideas from that time does not make me ancient. Nor does studying and using French philosophy make me French. Nor does eating Chinese every night make me Chinese. ETC

thetammyjo -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 8:12:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: JustDarkness just curious did they call themselfs Old Guard then also? I guess Old Guard doesn't excist anymore if they were motocyclers from WW2. "Old Guard" was coined as a derogatory term in the mid 1970's as what we now call organized BDSM (the acronym not having been created then) was transitioning from being exclusively gay to pansexual, from an exclusive armed forces background to one that accepted all backgrounds, from an exclusive hierarchy of achievement to one more democratic.... basically... when it transitioned from being exclusive to being inclusive. The "New Guard" at the time considered their inclusiveness to be "superior" to the exclusivity of the "Old Guard". When it was created, the term "Old Guard" was the functional equivalent of calling someone a dinosaur... telling them that their time had passed and they were on the verge of extinction. They never called themselves "Old Guard" just as folks in the middle ages didn't call themselves "medieval". John I agree with this explanation but want to add that my criticism stems from folks who use the term "Old Guard" in what they perceive as a respectful even worshipful fashion, as though it is better than other ways of doing things, and then claim to be "Old Guard' when they clearly cannot be part of that original group. Sidenote: There was no uniform "Old Guard" -- each club had it's own rules though there were some overarching similarities which likely come from the common experiences of WWII military service and being gay.

JustDarkness -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 8:26:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo You can say you were trained "Old Guard" or use "Old Guard" but just because I study the ancient world and use some of the ideas from that time does not make me ancient. Nor does studying and using French philosophy make me French. Nor does eating Chinese every night make me Chinese. ETC playing soccer..makes me a soccer player though..eventhough soccer was invented long ago... But I do understand the old..old guard..will never be here again. Gonna enjoy some reading the links people posted....that is way more interesting then circle in the same discussion. (but it was enjoyable)

Rover -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 8:37:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustDarkness playing soccer..makes me a soccer player though..eventhough soccer was invented long ago... Soccer has rules that govern all (organized) games. "Old Guard" did not, and does not. And that is the issue.... those who claim that it did (but have no documentation) vs. those who claim that it didn't (and have plenty of documentation). John

JustDarkness -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 9:07:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: JustDarkness playing soccer..makes me a soccer player though..eventhough soccer was invented long ago... Soccer has rules that govern all (organized) games. "Old Guard" did not, and does not. And that is the issue.... those who claim that it did (but have no documentation) vs. those who claim that it didn't (and have plenty of documentation). John Old Guard did have rules http://www.lexlyons.org/OldGuardHistory.htm I don't know if the source is trustworthy ((The History of Leather Traditions) by Guy Baldwin M.S.) http://www.ajepstein.com/photo%20gallery/baldwin.html and in the end he makes the remark... quote: But remember this, as long as we have a military, and a paramilitary police system, and as long as that military has traditions of initiation, ritual, inclusion/exclusion, honor and service, there will always be an '0ld Guard.' quote: those who claim that it did (but have no documentation) vs. those who claim that it didn't (and have plenty of documentation). (those who claim that did (and have information) vs. those who claim that didn't (but have no information) is an option too ;) where is that plenty of documention? I find it interesting to read about them this I found which interesting to read.....guess it show both sides...pro and contra http://www.lexlyons.org/OldGuardNewGuard.htm

Rover -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 9:45:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustDarkness Old Guard did have rules http://www.lexlyons.org/OldGuardHistory.htm I don't know if the source is trustworthy ((The History of Leather Traditions) by Guy Baldwin M.S.) You're reading selectively. Guy also stated: "Very few men maintained full compliance with all these rules all the time, and some, flatly refused to follow rules they personally objected to. But, to be included one was expected to follow at least most of these rules most of the time. Also, confusingly, there was some variation in some of the rules depending on what city you happened to be in at the time." So which "Old Guard" rules are you talking about? The ones in Las Angeles or San Francisco? New York or Boston? Dallas or Kansas City? There are no one set of rules that anyone can point to and say... "there, those are the "Old Guard" rules". And what good are any rules if, by Guy's own admission, very few actually complied with them? quote: and in the end he makes the remark... "But remember this, as long as we have a military, and a paramilitary police system, and as long as that military has traditions of initiation, ritual, inclusion/exclusion, honor and service, there will always be an '0ld Guard.'" Guy is not saying that the military has any relationship to "Old Guard" or BDSM. He's simply stating an historical fact... that the men whom we now call the "Old Guard" had a shared military experience. They were also exclusively gay. And had an exclusive interest in S/M. This meant that they shared a common bond of comraderie; a bond that most folks in the military, on a sports team, in a fraternity or sorority, etc. can appreciate. quote: those who claim that it did (but have no documentation) vs. those who claim that it didn't (and have plenty of documentation). quote: (those who claim that did (and have information) vs. those who claim that didn't (but have no information) is an option too ;) where is that plenty of documention? I find it interesting to read about them You claim to be reading it. Plenty of factual documentation exists. You're free to believe it or not. If you should come across any legitimate documentation to the contrary, I'm sure we'd all be anxious to learn of it. Some folks will believe what they want... simply because they want to believe. But in the end, most folks grow out of believing in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and "Old Guard" protocols as they are commonly portrayed (particularly online). quote: this I found which interesting to read.....guess it show both sides...pro and contra http://www.lexlyons.org/OldGuardNewGuard.htm Perhaps you don't understand that I've read all these articles, and many more. I am not recently discovering the topic, it is one I am reasonably well versed in. I even provided a list of suggested authors in an earlier post (that included Gayle Rubin). John

JustDarkness -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 9:47:32 AM)
quote: You're reading selectively. I was waiting for that...because I thought the same about you ;) I guess that is how we work. We can go on and on..we will find things that proof us right...and proof us wrong. quote: You claim to be reading it. Plenty of factual documentation exists. You're free to believe it or not. If you should come across any legitimate documentation to the contrary, I'm sure we'd all be anxious to learn of it. you say I have no documentation..I come with some..and then you say again...I should come with some documentation. Serious..judging is easy...but give me some to read..if you want to convince me. I am easily convinced if you show me the documents you talk about. It is interesting....and perhaps I am wrong..perhaps I read it the wrong way. But perhaps...not. But I let it rest for now...found it interesting none the less. Again learned soemthing.

Rover -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 9:49:48 AM)
Well, I'll just make it really easy then.... Point out for me where the "Old Guard" protocols can be found and you will have proven your point. If you cannot, then I have proven mine. John

JustDarkness -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 9:56:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover Well, I'll just make it really easy then.... Point out for me where the "Old Guard" protocols can be found and you will have proven your point. If you cannot, then I have proven mine. John lol...you said there was documentation. I asked several times..afther my documention was not good enough..where it was. don't keep turning it around. Neah proof that some one is wrong..never proofs you are right. There might be more then just your and my option. you have your view...I have mine. lets continue with other things... my last one http://old-guard.blogspot.com/

Rover -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 10:20:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustDarkness [lol...you said there was documentation. I asked several times..afther my documention was not good enough..where it was. don't keep turning it around. Each of the following historians will clearly state that there is no singular set of "Old Guard" traditions or protocols... that they differed from group to group (just as protocols do today). My apology for being redundant, in that some have been previously posted. Jack Rinella - "Myth of the Old Guard" http://www.leatherviews.com/kinkyinfo/9930.htm Jay Wiseman - "The Old Days" http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/olddays.htm Gayle Rubin - "Old Guard, New Guard" http://www.black-rose.com/cuiru/archive/4-2/oldguard.html Joseph Bean - "Old Guard? If You Say So" http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/old_guard.htm Guy Baldwin - "The Old Guard: History of Leather Traditions" http://www.albanypowerexchange.com/History/old_guard1.htm You cannot read these and come to the conclusion that there was some sort of unified "Old Guard" protocols... it's just impossible. It's no different then pointing to one current BDSM group in Wyoming, and saying that their protocols are what govern all of BDSM today. It's just not credible in the least. quote: Neah proof that some one is wrong..never proofs you are right. There might be more then just your and my option. you have your view...I have mine. lets continue with other things... I assume you meant opinion... and the fact is that documented history is not a matter of opinion. Interpretation of those facts may be opinion, but the facts themselves stand for themselves. quote: my last one http://old-guard.blogspot.com/ This is just a verbatim reproduction of a selected portion of Guy Baldwin's article. The website should learn not to plagairise, and you should learn to read more carefully. John

beargonewild -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 10:21:08 AM)
~FR~ From what I have seem, the whole group of Leather men that are considered "Old Guard" basically was a nucleus to forming a generalized set of protocols and philosophy to which they modeled their life around; a set of beliefs created which they believed in and made their own. As time past, others also took up many of these core beliefs and used most or some of these tenants and incorporated them into their own personal set of values. Thus the "New Guard" evolved from this and consequently adapted and modified the philosophy into what they wanted as opposed to adapting themselves to the "Old Guard" way of thinking. It is in this that I see how the friction between the followers of the "Old Guard" the "new Guard" and ones who feel it's all a bunch of bullshit. Compared to many, I am just a greenhorn whippersnapper as I didn't exist during the 1950s and was too young to understand any of this in the 60s. Thus I do not have the knowledge nor the experience to fall upon other then from what I have gleamed from knowing many in the leather community who do pass on many of the traditions of the "Old Guard ways."

JustDarkness -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 10:22:25 AM)
quote: you should learn to read more carefully. John sometimes people advise should be followed by themselfs But thank you for the links. I do appreciate that part. (btw those are the same as I posted)

thetammyjo -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 10:22:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustDarkness quote: You're reading selectively. I was waiting for that...because I thought the same about you ;) I guess that is how we work. We can go on and on..we will find things that proof us right...and proof us wrong. quote: You claim to be reading it. Plenty of factual documentation exists. You're free to believe it or not. If you should come across any legitimate documentation to the contrary, I'm sure we'd all be anxious to learn of it. you say I have no documentation..I come with some..and then you say again...I should come with some documentation. Serious..judging is easy...but give me some to read..if you want to convince me. I am easily convinced if you show me the documents you talk about. It is interesting....and perhaps I am wrong..perhaps I read it the wrong way. But perhaps...not. But I let it rest for now...found it interesting none the less. Again learned soemthing. The book you cited is a study of the topic. It is not documentation of the groups themselves. Documentation would be primary sources, written by and followed by the various groups and first-person accounts of these groups. The more you can find, the stronger your argument will be. Claims that there was "Old Guard" then might come about if there were rules that every group followed and an awareness of this consistency between said groups. Historians do study this topic, they do write books and articles on it though it is very new in the study of history.

JustDarkness -> RE: Old Gaurd (10/21/2008 10:26:28 AM)
I was looking for material on the subject. It is very interesting..because for their time..it was something special what they did. I guess they just lived their life...and didn't think about noting it down. (because it was forbidden....looked down at...they were gay, a big sin.) So later some people tried to capture their thoughts in documentation...as with many things. Propably loosing the real details, but still valuable. If you have some interesting links on the subject..I would love to read them.

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