Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (Full Version)

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Hippiekinkster -> Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 12:14:10 AM)

Or, to be more precise, a Libertarian Socialist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

An alternative to Capitalism
http://www.libertariansocialism.net/

One man's journey from Libertarianism to LS.
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/wilson_1.html

The term "Libertarianism" was co-opted.

Read about the original Diggers in the UK circa 1650 or so.


Addendum: there's some funny but oh-so-true stuff here
:http://world.std.com/~mhuben/onelesson.html
"Libertarianism in One Lesson".
Om Mani Padme Om is so Sixties. The new mantra is "Government Does Not Work"
Some other great stuff there too. [8D]



seeksfemslave -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 4:10:55 AM)

I am all in favour of people offering their thoughts on the perfectability of society and the human condition in general This can include both religious and economic thinkers.
Unfortunately such theories tend to flounder when imperfect humans start to apply them.This applies to market capitalism as well as liberal socialism.

At least in market capitalism self correcting mechanisms exist.
See whats happening now in the credit crunch. Painful and probably unjust I agree. but correcting nevertheless. I am not blind to the socialistic component involved in the attempts to save the banks.

Once political/economic control is handed to a self regarding bureaucratic elite then there is no way out because the bureaucracy tends to expand exponetially and will usually apply more of the same when things start to go wrong. This must follow because in their heart of hearts they know that their orthodoxy is correct.
On top of this massively wasteful social programmes will be underwritten placing financial burdens on many who socialists claim to be helping.
These burdens are made worse when welfare programmes are included. For instance in the UK it is acknowledged that many families are better off not working but living off the taxpayer. The skill here is to contrive conditions that bring this about.


So IMO the answer is neither Socialism nor untrammeled market Capitalism but something in between.




NorthernGent -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 4:37:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Or, to be more precise, a Libertarian Socialist.



'Certainly is an interesting concept.

A system of government has to fit human behaviour. Can Social Anarchism meet this need?



Musicmystery -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 6:01:54 AM)

quote:

At least in market capitalism self correcting mechanisms exist.


Not always---markets don't adjust for free riders or externalities, making at least some regulation necessary.

Adam Smith is imperfect in an industrial economy.



popeye1250 -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 9:27:05 AM)

Boy, so many people trying to tell us that Obama is (not) a Socialist these days.
Why are they going out of their way I wonder?



kittinSol -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 9:29:06 AM)

Duh. Because when you're accused of being something you're not, you have to retaliate and explain the truth, otherwise you tacitely agree with your accusers. Helllllo [8|] .



popeye1250 -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 9:41:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Duh. Because when you're accused of being something you're not, you have to retaliate and explain the truth, otherwise you tacitely agree with your accusers. Helllllo [8|] .


Kittin, Abbadabba may or may not be a Socialist but he is certainly a "Global Socialist."
He wants to "double foreign aid" with my Taxdollars and that's not alright!



Musicmystery -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 9:43:44 AM)

Foreign aid is a small, small piece of the budget.

We should be worried about the much more serious large pieces.



kittinSol -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 9:53:50 AM)

Popeye thinks 'foreign aid' is done out of pure altruism. He disregards that 'foreign aid' is a minute investment with a very, very large return.



popeye1250 -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 9:54:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Foreign aid is a small, small piece of the budget.

We should be worried about the much more serious large pieces.


Music, yeah, $68.8 Billion would be chicken feed, right?
Plus there's that miniscule amount of $854 B to the "U.N." to....."alleviate world poverty" that Abbadabba sponsored in S-2433.



hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 11:16:42 AM)

Ever heard the saying "methinks he protesteth to much"? 
 
There's a fine line between denying what is untrue, and denying to the point where it looks like you're trying to convince even yourself that what you're denying is untrue.
 
And tell me, just what "large return" is the American taxpayer seeing for all the foreign aid money that our government takes out of our pockets and sends to other people?  Expanded markets?  No.  More jobs here?  Just the opposite, considering how many companies are "outsourcing" these days.  Staunch allies?  HA!  We're pretty much hated and despised by everyone - Until it comes time to get out the friggin checkbook and send them more money, at which point they claim to be our friends.  Military bases all over the globe?  Hell, we pay rent on the vast majority of the land those various bases sit on, plus being expected to provide help in emergencies, plus being expected to provide "foreign aid" to the countries where that land sits.  Oh yeah, I can see such Huge returns on all the aid we've given over the years.  (NOT)



Sanity -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 11:28:00 AM)


I would say that Obama is a socialist and you're ... even further left than that.



kittinSol -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 11:31:24 AM)

Less than 0.6% of the federal budget, but a great investment when it comes to making friends and influencing people. Much of it in the form of repayable loans - it's easy to cry over it because of course it plays up to the agenda that America is subsidising dirty Johnny foreigner [8|] . The facts, however, depict a different picture. And if you are concerned about wasteful spending... crap, start with the defense budget, I BEG of you.



Owner59 -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 11:38:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Boy, so many people trying to tell us that Obama is (not) a Socialist these days.
Why are they going out of their way I wonder?


Because of the millions spent by folks calling Obama a socialist.

Where ya been Popeye?

In times past,our candidates wouldn`t respond to such tripe.

Not anymore.

Hey Popeye,while you`re wondering,ever wonder why McCain has to prove he`s not Bush?

lol...



kittinSol -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 11:41:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Hey Popeye,while you`re wondering,ever wonder why McCain has to prove he`s not Bush?


He isn't?



MrRodgers -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 11:43:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Boy, so many people trying to tell us that Obama is (not) a Socialist these days.
Why are they going out of their way I wonder?

I worry too. He might double the national (our) treasury debt. He might double the price of gas and my medical insurance premiums. He might oversee the loss of 2 million more jobs. Could be a successful socialist if he tries real hard like W.

BTW as I have tried to convey the definition of 'socialism' is: Government ownership of the means of production...period.

Welfare...are we talking welfare for the great unwashed out here in capitalist land or welfare for wall street and those the real socialists otherwise known by commentators as the investor class ?

Ok, let's take AFDC. (aid to families with dependent children) It has gone down steadily since 1993. At its highest it was $20 billion in a single year. This bailout (welfare) for the capitalist would fund AFDC for 35-40 years. YES, I am worried how this country will continue along as it has when the capitalists down here on main street will continue to have to pay more taxes to bailout those socialists on wall street.

Or... are we talking about the great American $Trillion swindle by wall street ? How about the just annouced (discovered) currently budgeted $70 BILLION in discretionary bonuses for THIS year for the bankers that WE are prividing a $250 BILLION line of credit. Now that's MY kind of socialism.

These boards obviously are more than a bit confused as to what socialism is. In OUR country it is socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor and is has really paid off...handsomely too.



cjan -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 1:09:00 PM)

I'm more a social democrat. I admire the systems in a large part of Scandinavia, especially Sweden.

"Socialism" scares a lot of , imo, uniformed people. It's a knee jerk reaction when people equate communism with social democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

Obama has not espoused any socialist ideas that I'm aware of. Those that try to label him a socialist should make sure they understand the definition and then site instances where he has suggested a socialist approach.



DomKen -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 1:34:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach
And tell me, just what "large return" is the American taxpayer seeing for all the foreign aid money that our government takes out of our pockets and sends to other people?  Expanded markets?  No.  More jobs here?  Just the opposite, considering how many companies are "outsourcing" these days.  Staunch allies?  HA!  We're pretty much hated and despised by everyone - Until it comes time to get out the friggin checkbook and send them more money, at which point they claim to be our friends.  Military bases all over the globe?  Hell, we pay rent on the vast majority of the land those various bases sit on, plus being expected to provide help in emergencies, plus being expected to provide "foreign aid" to the countries where that land sits.  Oh yeah, I can see such Huge returns on all the aid we've given over the years.  (NOT)

Historically foreign aid in a myriad of forms has been the US's greatest foreign policy success. Why didn't all of western Europe enter the Soviet bloc in the late 40's early 50's? US foreign aid. What stabilised Japan and kept the ultra nationalists out of power? US foreign aid. What allows Israel to defend itself and allows the US to not be required to station troops there to defend it? US foreign aid. What brought Egypt out of the Soviet sphere and began the ME peace process? US foreign aid. Why is smallpox effectively extinct? US foreign aid. etc.



slvemike4u -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 1:49:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Less than 0.6% of the federal budget, but a great investment when it comes to making friends and influencing people. Much of it in the form of repayable loans - it's easy to cry over it because of course it plays up to the agenda that America is subsidising dirty Johnny foreigner [8|] . The facts, however, depict a different picture. And if you are concerned about wasteful spending... crap, start with the defense budget, I BEG of you.
Kittin ,my dear, dear deluded friend...cutting the military budget would seriously erode our ability to engage in Regime Change, or as it was previously known .......WAR



thetammyjo -> RE: Obama is a Centrist... I'M a Socialist (10/20/2008 1:50:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Boy, so many people trying to tell us that Obama is (not) a Socialist these days.
Why are they going out of their way I wonder?

I worry too. He might double the national (our) treasury debt. He might double the price of gas and my medical insurance premiums. He might oversee the loss of 2 million more jobs. Could be a successful socialist if he tries real hard like W.



Do you all pay any attention at all to who is in the White House when government spending and debt increases?

The "media" screams that it is democrats and liberals but the objective reality has been the opposite for my entire lifetime.

Look at who has had the bulk of federal executive power in my lifetime -- not democrats or liberals -- so if you don't like the way things work now, think we spend too much on everything, and want a change, way on earth would you vote for so-called conservatives or republicans?

Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is one sign of insanity, folks.



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