RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/20/2008 1:00:10 PM)
I think there are a lot of reasons for it. The first of which is some folks on the boards just honestly don't like some other folks on the boards. They either don't care for their particular posting style or maybe just don't think of them much as decent human beings. I have a couple of these folks on My list Myself. Some of you might remember one to be a rather infamous troll who was here for a while. I say this about real life kink communities, too. Just because people happen to be kinky, doesn't mean we're all going to like one another. Also, I think you have to take into consideration the particular mood, life circumstances, attitude, and a score of other things of the person writing or responding to any post at any given time. People who have had bad past experiences with a topic are going to have a more emotionally charged response to it. Sometimes, they zone in on a particular phrase or background explanation of a post and it hits a hurtful place with them. That causes them to react in a less than positive way. I'd like to add to that the fact that not everyone has the best written communication skills on the planet. This causes a lot of misinterpretations on a variety of subjects. Many times, I've read these boards and tried to figure out exactly what someone was saying or what the intent of their comment was. I was thinking of this just yesterday when I was reading another thread. I forget which one it was, but there were several newer posters on the boards who specifically said they had questions, but didn't post them because they were worried about being flamed. Hey, I've done that and I admit it. I know what was behind it on My end. Sometimes, I make mistakes on My part. Everybody's entitled to be less than perfect once in a while.

catize -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/20/2008 2:39:20 PM)
Frequently I see post originators who seem to be surprised that not everyone will agree with them. There are times that a thoughtful but opposing view is deemed to be a personal attack, when the respondent is merely in disagreement with a certain premise. It’s really not against the ‘kinkster’ but that’s how they see it. However, as LadyPact pointed out we all have our hot-button topics. I try to stay away from those that ‘send me over the edge’ because I can’t be nice. And there are certain posters who annoy me to no end and I avoid responding to them in any way because it’s like religion and politics---takes a lot of energy and nobody has any interest in really hearing the other side; nor is anyone going to change their views. Then there are the posters I generally agree with but would feel silly following them around the board saying “I agree”. Bottom line, for me anyway, is that I can only monitor my own behaviors here. The way others act or respond is up to them.

RCdc -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/20/2008 3:37:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness Why do you think discussion opened so often focuses on the Kinkster, rather than the Kink? Because sometimes, people just do not get people. There will always be factions and there will always be people who dislike others and focus on the kinkster rather than the question. Now I totally admit I can sound harsh and apparently, that is seen as condecending. However I am pretty comfortable knowing that I do sometimes come across as that and that most people that 'get' me - at least the ones who bother to get to know me. But what I find interesting the most is - on both this thread and the other currently going on wihich is basically covering the same ground - are people 'up in arms' over the attacks and bullying(which is basically what it comes down too) seem oblivious to the fact that they are doing it too. That they have to accept the guilt. Every single person here should take on the 'blame'. It's almost like people saying - yes it happens, but I would never dream of doing it and never do. Bullshit. Every single person posting is capable of hurting anothers feelings/sense of worth/confidence etc. And they do it in abundance. Only they don't think/believe/see that they are. We can have this discussion until the cows come home, basic thing is that everyone answers differently. Everyone thinks differently and everyone perceives information differently - particularly from a cultural POV. And there are no gestures. No faces to look into. No hands. No voices and inflections. And even if there were, I doubt very much that it would help either. Forums such as this are a place for anarchy. A place to express with out the physical beatings. But very few persons here thinks to consider the people on the other side of the screen. That they just might not get a joke. Or a piece of satire. Or irony. Or that they may be vulnerable. Or hurting. Or just out of rehab or hospital. I don't believe the issue is the people dishing out the negativity, it's also the people inhaling it in. You get what you expect and what you would give out. If you are a poster who is giving out information because it's practical and what you would do in a situation then you don't perceive that when negativity comes to you, it's being done on a personal level/attack - but you see it as constructive critique. You cannot please everyone, you cannot support everything, you have to accept that people fuck up, including oneself. But few people are willing to admit that. the.dark.

leadership527 -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/20/2008 3:45:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness Why do you think discussion opened so often focuses on the Kinkster, rather than the Kink? I think you already know the answer to this. Fundamentally, when you look at any communication forum, you need to understand it's strengths and weaknesses. A web discussion board like this is kind of like a bar where everyone is shouting over the music to hear someone else. Also, half the people shouting are actually just seeking to draw attention to themselves as a part of attracting a mate. Anonymity drives the behavioral standards downwards making matters worse. Really, when you think about it, it's not exactly the best venue to have a serious conversation in. Frequently, I address meaty topics in cmails rather than on the boards because the quality of conversation is just so much higher even if it's the same people I'm cmailing as would've posted on a thread.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/20/2008 4:00:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness I did not mean for this to be a discussion about the sad short comings of web board discussions, but about why people choose to direct time and energy into avoiding the questions posted on a topic for discussion, and instead direct personal comments towards the person of the OP. I think that some of the reason is fear. When things come up in OPs that make people uncomfortable, it seems like the reflex is to do what we would do if the person were standing in front of us... either run away (in which there is no post...) or attack the -source- of the discomfort before it can make us any more uncomfortable. Fear also causes us to, in some cases, want to do -something-... -anything-... to stop the person experiencing the thing that frightens us from continuing in that experience... even if it is something they -choose- to participate in. We clothe this fear in terms like 'ethics', 'morality', 'law'... but all of the window dressing still, IMO, breaks down into "I'm afraid of this and uncomfortable with it. I want you to stop, and I want others to validate and even enforce my right to not have to be exposed to this discomfort any more." For the longest time, this was one of the things I really didn't understand about the Kink community... if we were -all- doing things outside the 'law', then why were so many folks so eager to pull the law into someone -else's- situation... it took time for me to grasp that people feel safe and justified in what -they- are doing... but fear what they don't understand when someone else is doing it, and feel compelled to "put things in order", even if it means attacking those who enjoy whatever it is that is so deeply feared. For those of us who recognize and are able to deal with our own fears, we can sometimes search past the fear to actually answer the questions about the kink, even if it is uncomfortable to us, and to express our discomfort in ways that are not an attack of someone else's choices.

DavanKael -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/20/2008 4:19:55 PM)
Giving folks the benefit of the doubt for good motives, I would say that they could be offering empathy as well as personal experience as examples. Davan

yourMissTress -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/20/2008 6:10:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness Why do you think discussion opened so often focuses on the Kinkster, rather than the Kink? Because people read what they want to read into whatever they read. It happens all the time. Recently, I posed a question and gave an example in the OP to help everyone understand my meaning. What happened? A few people understood what I was saying, a few people thought I was slamming a whole group of lovely people, and a few people thought I was having trouble with my selection process. The person reading has their own perception of what they are reading. Their current life circumstances, experiences, and feelings all have a part in shaping their perceptions. As well, their ideas about the poster will shape how they understand the question and what they feel about the subject. So what they read, and what they garner from what they read may be completely different things. A thought, idea, or question posted on a public forum invites every possible response.

OneMoreWaste -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/20/2008 8:02:12 PM)
One of the underlying issues is that the realm of BDSM is fairly broad and complex. You can't ask a REALLY general question- "What do you think of submission?"- because there's nothing for anybody to latch onto. You could end up just getting a wikipedia link. The problem comes when you go too far in the other direction, and people move it to an individual discussion because you've taken it away from a context they can relate to- "What do you think of an Alzheimer's patient submitting to a former police officer who was wounded in the line of duty and is now a paraplegic?". Well, they've never been in that exact situation and probably never will, so all they can talk about is "you". On the other hand, I often see threads go this way when somebody (sometimes the thread starter, sometimes not) takes someone else's negative response personally. Kinks are highly personal. People (and I know I'm certainly guilty here) can identify themselves very strongly with where they fit into the BDSM world, and so a comment that is perceived to be needlessly critical is easily seen as a personal attack.

Constrictor1 -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/20/2008 9:59:17 PM)
softness, What do you think the odds are that on an open BDSM forum some people would lash out just to make themselves look or feel better?[:D]

SailingBum -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/20/2008 10:35:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subintrainingnc i totally agree, which is why i have yet to post any of the many questions i have had through the months. i have been scared of the fallout . But i think since this is an open forum, you will always get alot of both sides, so just take what you like and leave the rest. Grow thicker skin. It's words on a screen BadOne

colouredin -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/21/2008 12:05:20 AM)
FR I think its a bit like the hypothetical situation "oh well i now someone who ...." instantly people think that the question is about the poster really and then people feel free to judge away. Also sometimes people dont realise that they are even doing it, or the poster can become hyper sensitive. Personally I try to frame my post in a personal context, mostly because they are the types of posts I most enjoy reading so I expect personal attacks, I expect people to flame and laugh and all that stuff.

ranja -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/21/2008 2:14:13 AM)
Because most people just can't resist a bit of mud slinging...it is good to get dirty ya know!

missturbation -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/21/2008 4:46:07 AM)
quote: Why do you think discussion opened so often focuses on the Kinkster, rather than the Kink? Op's who tend to get this treatment are more often that not the ones who include personal thought, opinion or experience. It's much easier to take on the person than to take on the thought, opinion or experience. Sometimes dislike for a poster is not hidden well by people here and anything they post will be flamatory to those doing the disliking. Your kink is not my kink but it's ok is a thought process rarely followed here. Some people believe they are big and clever when they attempt to diss a poster. It's fun for them. There is only one twue way for many who post here and anyone not following that one twue way needs taking down. Probably many many more reasons but im not awake properly yet and cant think [:D]

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/21/2008 9:20:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SailingBum Grow thicker skin. It's words on a screen BadOne SB, I agree with you to a point. Where we diverge is that, for those who are out and public, the view of the -inside- of the person's life that becomes available through venues like these boards offers a more intimate peek than most people expose, even during group events and play parties. The 'words on the screen' can become public and physical expression, and can gain momentum in meat-life that can be -very- detrimental. Things are discussed here that we wouldn't do or show in public -- and yet, for some of us, we -are- known in the outside world. If something we discuss here disturbs people to the point where they decide that they -simply MUST- "do something" about the poster's perversion, because it is "just WRONG"... those of us who are visible and actually -living- and participating in the offline community have a much greater level of vulnerability than those who are only electrons on a screen with no intention or interest in being actively involved in the community. This next part is probably going to peeve a number of people, but at this point, I still feel that regardless of it being torch-bait, it bears being said. Spending time on the lists here has been, overall, rather educational. In some ways, though, the 'education' I've received will prove to be less beneficial for my local community, which is a sad thing. There are two ways that the knowledge I've obtained here have impacted my interactions with the community detrimentally that I've noticed. The first is that I've discovered that there are a lot of ideas, some of which are rarely discussed, that I had considered bringing up either here or in the local community that I now realize would be so poorly received (to the point of exposing my House to risks that are beyond what we are willing to accept) that there really isn't any reason to consider bringing them up. The second is that I am reluctant to get any more deeply enmeshed in our local community, since I've learned through discussions here and through sitting down with people who cross over between the online and meat-life communties, that the individuals comprising the public face of BDSM are -much- more closed-minded and much more enmeshed in the 'safe', canalized, mainstream culture and much more embracing of the 'police state' than I would have expected even just a few years ago from a culture that I had, until that point, considered a 'fringe' culture (traditionally, 'fringe' cultures are much more likely to eschew involvement of 'mainstream' authorities, and prefer to police themselves rather than open the sanctity of their 'community' to outsiders and outsider law).

leadership527 -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/21/2008 9:43:45 AM)
shrugs People of integrity have the courage of their convictions... nothing new here. Integrity and courage must always be balanced against consequence... again nothing new. quote: This next part is probably going to peeve a number of people, but at this point, I still feel that regardless of it being torch-bait, it bears being said... that the individuals comprising the public face of BDSM are -much- more closed-minded and much more enmeshed in the 'safe', canalized, mainstream culture and much more embracing of the 'police state' than I would have expected. So, this important point in your mind... the thing that will likely peeve people off but needs to be said anyway is, *Everyone who doesn't agree with Calla is an ignorant savage.* I'm not really sure why you felt it was so important to say that, but yes, it probably will piss people off, myself among them. The real issue is that people OTHER than you also have integrity and so have the courage of their convictions which differ from yours. And while I am sure that you find it emotionally comforting to be so incredibly judgmental, the real truth is that just because someone disagrees with you does not make them either stupid or a member of "the police state". This is the societal equivalent of kicking the soda machine. You know what, my neighbors are as vanilla as the day is long. I also hope that they are people of integrity who would, say, try to stop some bad guy from doing bad things to my wife... even if that bad guy was me. I encourage and support that sort of thinking in people who I live around. I also recognize that in a society with more than myself in it, that means we're going to have to have some discussion about what is and is not *bad*. I also recognize that because there is more than me in this society, I'm not going to get my way 100% of the time. I call that being a mature, grown up adult. You can call it being a member of the police-state if you wish.

MadRabbit -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/21/2008 9:46:55 AM)
Because judging people on an Internet message board doesn't even cost 2 cents and gets you a nice ego high of being morally righteous and superior.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/21/2008 10:07:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 shrugs People of integrity have the courage of their convictions... nothing new here. Integrity and courage must always be balanced against consequence... again nothing new. quote: This next part is probably going to peeve a number of people, but at this point, I still feel that regardless of it being torch-bait, it bears being said... that the individuals comprising the public face of BDSM are -much- more closed-minded and much more enmeshed in the 'safe', canalized, mainstream culture and much more embracing of the 'police state' than I would have expected. So, this important point in your mind... the thing that will likely peeve people off but needs to be said anyway is, *Everyone who doesn't agree with Calla is an ignorant savage.* I'm not really sure why you felt it was so important to say that, but yes, it probably will piss people off, myself among them. The real issue is that people OTHER than you also have integrity and so have the courage of their convictions which differ from yours. And while I am sure that you find it emotionally comforting to be so incredibly judgmental, the real truth is that just because someone disagrees with you does not make them either stupid or a member of "the police state". This is the societal equivalent of kicking the soda machine. You know what, my neighbors are as vanilla as the day is long. I also hope that they are people of integrity who would, say, try to stop some bad guy from doing bad things to my wife... even if that bad guy was me. I encourage and support that sort of thinking in people who I live around. I also recognize that in a society with more than myself in it, that means we're going to have to have some discussion about what is and is not *bad*. I also recognize that because there is more than me in this society, I'm not going to get my way 100% of the time. I call that being a mature, grown up adult. You can call it being a member of the police-state if you wish. Actually, I think that you pretty much missed my point... which had nothing to do with calling anyone else an "ignorant savage"... what it had to do with was that the BDSM community is much more 'mainstreamed' than it ever has been -- and the more mainstreamed, canalized (patterned), thinking, complete with 'mainstream' mores are much more common in the community -- The fetish community, especially online, is no longer a 'fringe' community. For those who have looked for it to be more mainstreamed, it is getting there. I would actually consider myself a 'savage'... in that things that I practice and -might once- have considered talking about I wouldn't any more... realizing that these things are no longer welcomed in the "kinder, gentler" community that is developing around WIITWD. I find it interesting that, in this discussion about the tendency to levy personal attacks rather than addressing the issues at hand, this situation has provided a -perfect- example of what I was trying to express, apparently very ineffectively.

leadership527 -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/21/2008 10:42:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I find it interesting that, in this discussion about the tendency to levy personal attacks rather than addressing the issues at hand, this situation has provided a -perfect- example of what I was trying to express, apparently very ineffectively. Me too Calla. The only difference is that I thought it started with your post. Perhaps that is the answer to the OP's question. Out of curiosity, are you seriously going try to tell me that the phrase "police state" is a judgement neutral statement rather than a personal attack? Are you seriously, in public, going to go reread your post, notably this part right here... quote: that the individuals comprising the public face of BDSM are -much- more closed-minded and much more enmeshed in the 'safe', canalized, mainstream culture and much more embracing of the 'police state' than I would have expected even just a few years ago from a culture that I had, until that point, considered a 'fringe' culture (traditionally, 'fringe' cultures are much more likely to eschew involvement of 'mainstream' authorities, and prefer to police themselves rather than open the sanctity of their 'community' to outsiders and outsider law ... and tell me and everyone else here that that was a judgement neutral observation of a legitimate difference of opinion regarding where societies rights leave off and individual rights begin? If so, then all I can do is shake my head and apologize because god knows it read to me as a flat out attack on myself and anyone else who didn't happen to share your personal worldview. If that is the case, then there is another part of the answer to the OP's question. To your other point, I think actually ALL communities would prefer to police themselves. The "law" is what happens when that self-policing fails. The failure might be internal to the community, or the failure might be the larger community as a whole declaring the "self policing" a failure. For instance, I think that many of us would now agree that the financial industry pretty much failed to self-police itself. Now, "law" will happen - imposed by the larger community. I can certainly see your viewpoint... pretty much all fringe movements become mainstream over time (or else they wither away, one of the two). And that certainly means that those who are engaging in behavior that falls further outside what society will accept are going to be driven out of their past "fringe" thing into a new "fringe". I think this goes part and parcel with agreeing to be a social pariah. In the end, maybe one way to look at this is that these are the people who are society's explorers. In some cases, the exploration happens in a direction which the larger body sees as beneficial to itself and such people are rewarded... sometimes very handsomely. In other cases, the exploration happens in a direction which society perceives as a direct threat in which case the people are stopped. Heh, looking at it like that, it is the same as any other kind of leadership.... heady, but also risky.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/21/2008 11:02:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 Me too Calla. The only difference is that I thought it started with your post. Perhaps that is the answer to the OP's question. Out of curiosity, are you seriously going try to tell me that the phrase "police state" is a judgement neutral statement rather than a personal attack? Actually, I -am-. It's not a 'judgment neutral' statement, it is an opinion, and therefore a judgment. I -never- said it was 'judgment neutral'. That is a criteria that -you- assumed should be part of the discussion... but I do hold that my statement is -not- a personal attack... it is an observational statement about the community at large, and the tendency, over time, to depend upon legislation and ever-expanding laws invading personal privacy (the encroachment of the 'police state') to determine what is and is -not- acceptable behavior within the fetish community. I stand by that statement. A personal attack is when an INDIVIDUAL is vilified for his or her opinions, and my statement, as an overview of a perception of a direction the community as a whole appears to be taking is not a personal attack -- it is a comment on a general trend. quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW that the individuals comprising the public face of BDSM are -much- more closed-minded and much more enmeshed in the 'safe', canalized, mainstream culture and much more embracing of the 'police state' than I would have expected even just a few years ago from a culture that I had, until that point, considered a 'fringe' culture (traditionally, 'fringe' cultures are much more likely to eschew involvement of 'mainstream' authorities, and prefer to police themselves rather than open the sanctity of their 'community' to outsiders and outsider law Are you seriously, in public, going to go reread your post, notably this part right here. (see inset quote above)..and tell me and everyone else here that that was a judgement neutral observation of a legitimate difference of opinion regarding where societies rights leave off and individual rights begin? If so, then all I can do is shake my head and apologize because god knows it read to me as a flat out attack on myself and anyone else who didn't happen to share your personal worldview. If that is the case, then there is another part of the answer to the OP's question. Actually, once again, it was -not- 'judgment-neutral'. I -never- said it was non-judgmental and never intended it to be so, but it IS a legitimate opinion regarding where society's rights leave off and individual rights (and responsibilities) begin. It may not agree with -your- opinions about where those rights and responsibilities boundaries lie, but it was not in any way a personal attack against any individual on my part. It seems to me that it wasn't -me- attacking here. My statement was not levied at ANY individual... it was a general observation about -my- perceptions regarding the community. Since when do we have to be 'judgment neutral' about what we post? It is impossible to have an opinion that is 'judgment neutral'. Opinions are, by their very nature, a judgment. quote: I can certainly see your viewpoint... pretty much all fringe movements become mainstream over time (or else they wither away, one of the two). And that certainly means that those who are engaging in behavior that falls further outside what society will accept are going to be driven out of their past "fringe" thing into a new "fringe". I think this goes part and parcel with agreeing to be a social pariah. In the end, maybe one way to look at this is that these are the people who are society's explorers. In some cases, the exploration happens in a direction which the larger body sees as beneficial to itself and such people are rewarded... sometimes very handsomely. In other cases, the exploration happens in a direction which society perceives as a direct threat in which case the people are stopped. Heh, looking at it like that, it is the same as any other kind of leadership.... heady, but also risky. And -this- was my point... that one reason that people attack the kinkster and not the kink is because of the general tendency, within the community, to have drifted closer to that 'mainstream' point, with the natural shifts in perception towards the safer, gentler, and less extreme 'face' that comes with it... which is serving to shift those who are not mainstreaming and don't -want- to mainstream out onto the fringes of the community, where they don't say as much within the former "community", except among themselves, recognizing that the community has changed beyond the point where their input is of much value, and where continuing to participate could, in fact, expose them to reactionary response from that more mainstreamed core.

IrishMist -> RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster (10/21/2008 11:18:07 AM)
General reply to the OP I can admit that I am probably one of the more…vocal…bashers ( at least in the eyes of most here ) on the board. I know that I come across as harsh, scornful, and at times totally uncaring. However, I word things the way I do for a very specific reason. With the exception of those who post more often; I always read the profile of a poster before I respond to what they have said or asked. I look at the age, I look at what they say in their profile, and then I consider what they wrote in a post. Nine times out of ten, my harshness and brutality come from the idiotic nature of some questions asked ( my response is almost always the same….your 30/40 years old…you say this and this and that….and yet…you are sitting here asking THIS QUESTION? What the fuck are you? Stupid? Or just so ignorant that you don’t care? ) That’s what always passes through my head at times like that; and it colors my response. Sometimes it’s just the way a post was worded that gives me free reign to let my sarcasm free; sometimes the question asked is just so….juvenile … that it astounds me and I let that color my answer. And sometimes, I just feel in a mood to start trouble or make someone laugh, so I answer a certain way on purpose. In any way I answer though, I am always trying to convey the seriousness of a situation to the poster…my way not be the best, and I know it irritates a lot of people….but hey, that’s me. One thing I can say about my way of answering posts though…I always have something to say…it may not be what is wanted, and it may not be worded in a way that makes others happy…but I don’t waste words just for the sake of wasting words. There is always a purpose.

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