RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (Full Version)

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beargonewild -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 2:11:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

I am far from being a god.



You're far too modest [8D] .


*grins*

Though I have been called the bastard offspring of Satan himself a few times!




persephonee -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 2:22:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

Actually GT until it is born it is parasitic. A Fetus will extract every vitamin, nutrient and hydration from a mother who is undergoing malnutrition. This is a parasitical action, a parasite gives nothing back to the host whereas a symbiont does. It however does not do this with any mental cognition or determination, nor is it malicious in it's actions. Then again, neither are most parasites.

You are correct however without herculean medical aid and usually even with it, a fetus cannot survive outside the womb/body. The youngest still surviving preemie was born at 21 weeks, 6 days.She was given 0% chance of survival and it took massive amounts of medical care to help her do so. Her parents still have a  $40,000.00 medical bill for her birth and care AFTER Insurance paid. http://growingyourbaby.com/2007/07/14/update-youngest-preemie-ever-thriving-and-growing/ 21 weeks is in the second trimester, and at that stage they are considered a foetus from the 7th or 8th week, prior to that from the 2nd week after fertilization to the 7th week, they are considered an embryo and it is at this stage that the majority of abortions and miscarriages occur.

You are right however GT. The opposite of Love is not Hate, it is Apathy, The opposite of Pro-Life is not Pro-Death, it is Pro-Choice.

This part is not directed at GT

It is a hard choice to make, and one that is infinitely personal. It's nice to say go ahead and have the Um, but, there are an awful lot of men who say they aren't being asked, but at the same time ain't stepping up and helping to support and raise that Um. Half the time it takes a whole lot of money from the state (your taxes) to track em, run a DNA Paternity test and then get a order of child support levied and collected these days. IF you can find 'em..

It was an extremely Long, Hard road to Roe V Wade, and a very expensive one not just in money but in lives. Lives lost in back alleys, in desperate chemical concoctions and in infants left in garbage cans, birthed in toilets and left to die by children and women who had no other recourse after being turned out of their homes and swelling welfare rolls.

If abortion, contraceptives, morning after pills, are not for someone, that is their choice. But as I don't inflict my choice on them, they need not inflict it on me, and that INCLUDES in exercising the choice the Government has given us a chance to have. Just because the choice is there, does not mean that YOU (Pro-Life)  have to take advantage of it, that is the wonderful thing about choice.. You get to exercise it..use it..or not. Your Choice.

poenkitten






poen...

im so glad i know you. i cant type now cuz i cant see the screen anymore. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
perse.




Kirata -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 3:09:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kinksforus

u cannot b christian and b pro abortion.  murder does not fit into christian thinking

We're back to murder, eh?
 
Note to various Lords and Christians:
 
Judge not, that ye be not judged. ~Matthew 7:1

Who ya gonna trust?
 
K.
 

 




Kirata -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 3:11:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Though I have been called the bastard offspring of Satan himself a few times!

Lies! Lies!
 
You heard it from me.
 
K.
 




thetammyjo -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 3:11:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kinksforus

chtistianity and murder are in total opposition 2 each other.  you simply cannot be in favor of both.  you cannot be christian and pro choice.


What about pro-war?

Pro-death penalty?

Pro-gun ownership or weapon development?





hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 3:27:16 PM)

GT, it ain't easy, baring something of yourself that happens to be of such a nature.  But it's even more difficult to sit back with my mouth shut while people flippantly assume that there are never pressing reasons - simply because they find it outside their personal moral strictures.
 
I still ask myself, to this day - and it's been 12 YEARS since that set of twins - whether I did the right thing.  I ask myself what my son would have been like.  And then I sit back, and think about all the grief, all the heartache, all the pain of raising my 21 yr old.  I think about all the time spent at the hospital, wondering whether this would be the time she didn't come home.  I think about all the nights spent wondering if she would still be alive in the morning when I went in to get her dressed for the day.  I think about the uncountable trips to the doctor to have blood drawn every few weeks, so that we could make sure that the meds she had to have to survive weren't killing her via liver damage.  And after I think about all those things, I ask myself if I honestly could have faced that - and More than that - with a second one.  The answer is, and always has been, the same.  No, I couldn't.  I honestly don't know where people who adopt multiple multi-handicap children find the strength to face getting out of bed every morning.




Aswad -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 3:37:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

The issue is when human life begins. 


You of all people should know how meaningless that question is.

The answer is arbitrary, and can be determined by pissing in the wind and checking which way it's blowing. Life, in the regard you are presenting the question here, is an abstraction over the transition from a kind of benign neoplasm to a seperate vessel, and the abstraction is fluid. Furthermore, the viability of the postpartuitive vessel is zero without external intervention, which is exactly the same as the most commonly used criterion in defining this transition, meaning that integrity would dictate that such a ruling extend the upper limit to the point where the vessel is capable of independent life, not just to a certain week of gestation.

(Pardon the cumbersome language, as I am trying to heed Owner59's advice as regards the ToS.)

Furthermore, you also know that there is more than one issue in the debate. Consider a directed, acyclic condition graph for a moment. Each node is of the conjunctive or disjunctive type, and has an associated condition. Traversal of the graph can terminate when, and only when, the truth value of the composite predicate that it describes has been determined. Along one of the paths, you will find the issue you are raising, which itself is a non-leaf node, unless you confine the question to one of legality, which is reducible to absurdity by appealing to past policies on the matter, such as those extant under the NSDP in the 1930's and -40's.

(Pardon the cumbersome language, as I am trying to be accurate in describing the flaw in the proposed adequacy of the issue you mentioned.)

Health,
al-Aswad.




hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 3:49:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

I am far from being a god.



You're far too modest [8D] .


*grins*

Though I have been called the bastard offspring of Satan himself a few times!



Can't be, Bear - I was married to Satan's bastard son, and you ain't my ex husfreak....  (or are you simply one of his multitudes of half brothers?)




Aswad -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 3:59:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

To carry on a pregnancy or to terminate it are both responsible choices. In many cases, in fact, I believe the choice to terminate comes from a high feeling of personal responsibility (knowing that one will be incapable of raising an infant is the first reason that comes to mind).


Allow me to suggest instead that they are both choices that incur responsibility, and as such merit careful consideration on the part of the one who makes the choice. And, yes, in some cases, the decision is indeed made from a carefully consideration of the situation and one's own position on the issue. But in the majority of cases, provided statistics and personal experience serve me here, it is a matter of convenience, rather than a careful consideration. In my view, the latter is a line of reasoning that does not speak well of the person making the choice, whereas the former is one that does speak well of them, although I may not necessarily agree with their conclusion. Regardless, those are my views, and I have no reason to impose them on anyone else, as I respect choice, and believe that it is necessary for free citizens to be granted the legal right to choose for themselves in order for there to be anything worthwhile for the unborn to aspire to, apart from fighting to reinstate that right.

Personally, while I would not change what is, I am not certain whether it might have been the better choice for me if my mother had not carried to term in the first place. That certainly illustrates the part we agree on, namely the equivalence of both choices as far as the moral responsibility of making a choice on behalf of another is concerned. The "pro-life" position is definitely taking away a choice that the unborn might have made differently, and that they are closing off posibilities that the unborn might have preferred, since suicide is very different from not being born in the first place.

Quite frankly, a vessel that does not have the ability to live without external aid is not in a position to do anything other than accept whatever others choose to give it, including nothing at all, which is nicely summarized in the maxim that "beggars can't be choosers." And the unborn are definitely beggars, and will remain so for years after partuition.

I just happen to have a personal distaste for killing the unborn outside conditions of self-defense, and think existing legislation on self-defense should be used to cover this case, rather than making moral judgements and arbitrary definitions about the essential philosophical and theological (in an expanded sense) points of our existance in a court of law. Seems a lot more clean-cut, really, as it hinges on an existing premise and thereby does not run the risk of aggravating any mistakes, while also being covered if future redactions to the law are made to legalize killing in other contexts than self-defense (well, some places have capital punishment, but they usually require crimes that the unborn are simply incapable of committing). And I don't mind if someone damages themselves in bungling an attempt at killing outside a context of self-defense, either, so that problem is out. Just my take, though.

Annoyingly simple from that perspective, isn't it? [;)]

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 4:07:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistresseLotus

(very good point.  I think all those babies that were forced to be born.. should end up on the doorstep of the well-meaning pro-lifers)


Historical sidebar:

The pro-life position originates with early evangelical Christians in the Roman empire, wherein a man had to claim a child as his own, or it would be killed by exposure. Risking capital punishment for themselves, these early Christians searched for these children, found them, and adopted them as their own, a pretty serious crime at the time. That sort of campaigning, I can respect, even admire. Waving posters around and trying to force others to commit to a particular course of action that may not even conform to their morality, not so much.

And another sidebar for camille65:

You do know that the origins of the modern shape of the heart symbol lies with the seeds of the contraceptive herb Silphium, presumed to have gone extinct centuries ago due to overharvesting, right? Presumably, if we find its seeds, a chemically refined form of the active ingredients will be available at some point, just like foxglove became digoxin, wolfsbane became reserpine, st. john's wort became hypericum and hypericin, and so on and so forth. The distinction between herbs and medicine is popular, but also without any objective merit whatsoever, and is generally detrimental from a medical point of view.

People prefer not to understand, and (in my experience) conventional Christians moreso than most, so I'm not surprised.

Therein originates my support for stratification of society, incidentally.

Health,
al-Aswad.





Aswad -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 4:15:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It may removed the freedom to act on something, but it can never interfere with out conscience.


Actually, it does not remove the freedom to act on something, either. It imposes consequences for doing so. A freedom that is granted, or can be taken away (the two are equivalent), is no freedom at all. You find those within, or you rely on the mercy of others who might confer a likeness of freedom upon you by way of their hopefully benign mastery.

Also, it can interfere with our conscience, and usually does. The vast majority of the population are at a stage of moral development wherein the legality of an action, and/or the extent to which it conforms to the norms and expectations of society, is a significant factor in driving moral judgment, particularly in hindsight. Thus, people are thrown all out of whack when the fucked up standards they hold themselves to, meet with their inborn inability to adhere to those unnatural standards in an emergency condition; e.g. someone kills in self-defense, climbs over other people out of a burning airplane, etc., all on autopilot, then blame themselves for being who and what they are, because it does not conform to what they have internalized.

Off-topic: did I ever mention that Satan is our conscience? [:D]

Health,
al-Aswad.




ncprincess -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 4:16:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kinksforus

u cannot b christian and b pro abortion.  murder does not fit into christian thinking


Really? So, I don't know my own beliefs according to you....I KNOW I'm Christian and I KNOW I'm pro-choice. I'm just a silly southern sub though....maybe that explains my confusion.




GreedyTop -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 4:16:17 PM)

*adores Aswad*




Darias -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 4:19:13 PM)

*is slightly confused by Aswad  possibly cause today is the first time I realised the dictionary had that many complicated words in it *




camille65 -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 4:20:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

*adores Aswad*


It is nice to see Aswad posting again isn't it.




GreedyTop -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 4:22:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darias

*is slightly confused by Aswad  possibly cause today is the first time I realised the dictionary had that many complicated words in it *


cutie ;)




Darias -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 4:23:58 PM)

Shup Woman :P




catize -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 4:25:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

masturbation could be considered abortion too, since the sperm dont make contact with the eggs.. (MR.. I do like you :) )


and let's not forget celibacy!




thornhappy -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 4:31:11 PM)

I always wondered how many guys used condoms back when they couldn't afford a family...every single time  ?




variation30 -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 4:33:29 PM)

I think abortion, as it is practiced, is unethical. I am also an atheist (not anti-christian, whatever that means).




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