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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 3:00:43 AM

nephandi

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Exactly that, fear. Perhaps Star Wars had the right idea that that is a often werry negative emotion that lead to nothing good.

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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 3:52:03 AM

fyreredsub

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fear of failure, fear of rejection...
societal conditioning .....
then throw in some past hurts...
wham...

then of course, there are those people that lie just b/c they can....or want to, b/c they are selfish and have no regard for what pain they cause to others

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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 4:05:47 AM

ExistentialSteel

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A Samuel Johnson quote: "Seldom any splendid story is wholly true."

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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 9:10:19 AM

ginawithaB

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Now we’re getting’ somewhere.

>> Lying is a form of protection. A defense mechanism. Simple as that. From an early age you learn to lie to avoid discipline. You are not taught this. You learn it. It just blossoms from there.<<

SirKenin-could you say more about this? (BTW, LOVE your avatar!)

This is similar to what Padriag says:

>>fear of what might happen if we were really honest.<<

I agree with what Candy says here:

>>An unvarnished, thoughtless remark from someone i love may wound me deeply…but neither do i accept a string of critical remarks from someone who "loves" me under the guise that they are "just being honest"<<

I agree that that is not love, it’s emotional abuse. Now mind you, I’m not talking abt the occasional thoughless remark, but the habitual instance of continual hurtful remarks offered by another in any attempt, conscious, subconscious,or unconscious, to debase another – not within the context of bdsm play or in any therapeutic attempt toward emotional healing. But are we talking honesty vs. dishonesty here?

To Nephandi: Do we mostly believe that being honest necessarily means being hurtful as well?

Fyreredsub: Can you say more about these ppl?

>> then of course, there are those people that lie just b/c they can....or want to, b/c they are selfish and have no regard for what pain they cause to others<<

Thanx for all responses. You are truly helping me understand more.

gina

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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 9:36:37 AM

fastlane

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Gina, whenever I get confused I wander out to the desert for 40 days and fast!
I don't get many answer's but I sure do stay skinny, honestly!

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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 11:14:13 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

What is so scary or threatening about truth that we avoid hearing it? Or telling it? And I'm not talking about the gray areas of the truth and the my truth vs your truth thing. I'm talking simple honesty.

ever read anything by author Don Miguel Ruiz? He is somewhat popular for the book "The Four Agreements". this slave thought about his writings while reading your post. just some points to ponder from the book "The Voice of Knowledge"

"We are born in truth, but we grow up believing in lies. This is the whole drama of humanity, the whole problem with storytellers. One of the biggest lies in the story of humanity is the lie of our imperfection. That lie had a big effect in my own life. And I tell others not to make assumptions, I have to assume that in one way or another this happens to all of us. Of course there are differences in the story, but I think the pattern is more or less the same for everyone. Hardly anyone can escape from the setup......

Just imagine waking up and finding yourself in Europe during the Middle Ages. You see people suffering because their lives are ruled by superstition; they live in constant fear because of the lies they believe...

The real enemy is lies, and this used to be top secret in most traditions because people believed that whoever knew this would have power over other people, and they might misuse the power. That was the excuse, but I think that those that understood the truth were probably afraid to share it. Why? Because the people who believed in lies would be frightened of the truth and burn them alive. In fact, that is what happened in many parts of the world."

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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 11:53:46 AM

ginawithaB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fastlane

Gina, whenever I get confused I wander out to the desert for 40 days and fast!
I don't get many answer's but I sure do stay skinny, honestly!

You always bring a a smile to my face...glad your post wasn't on "approval" this time.

Mercnbeth: Thanx for the recommended reading...will look up Don Ruiz. And appreciated this statement:

quote:

The real enemy is lies, and this used to be top secret in most traditions because people believed that whoever knew this would have power over other people, and they might misuse the power. That was the excuse, but I think that those that understood the truth were probably afraid to share it. Why? Because the people who believed in lies would be frightened of the truth and burn them alive. In fact, that is what happened in many parts of the world."

Thoughts of Gallileo come to mind. However, this is all very philosophical isn't it? How does this relate to simple one-on-one human interactions?

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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 12:05:47 PM

Kinkypupper

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Because we try to impress others to gain their respect

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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 12:12:46 PM

SirKenin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ginawithaB

Now we’re getting’ somewhere.

>> Lying is a form of protection. A defense mechanism. Simple as that. From an early age you learn to lie to avoid discipline. You are not taught this. You learn it. It just blossoms from there.<<

SirKenin-could you say more about this? (BTW, LOVE your avatar!)

Glad you like it. I forget where I stole that. It is cool though.

I look at it like this. My parents taught Me to be honest. However, whenever I did something bad, which was all the time, I got the shit beaten out of Me. So, I learned to protect Myself. One of the ways I did that was when asked to fess up to a crime I learned to lie about it in order to avoid more discipline. Nobody taught Me how to do that. I learned it as a way to defend Myself. To protect Myself.

It just becomes a habit, and it becomes very difficult to break. It took Me two decades to break the habit and I am still struggling with it. There are other examples, but this is one that immediately comes to mind. You do not even have to be the troublemaker to be forced into a position of lying to save your own hide. It could be the threat of danger if you were to tell the truth about your feelings towards someone. You could be living with a violent husband where you feel even the simplest things need to be lied about to protect you from harm. It could also be something as simple as trying to protect your image.

The concept never changes as W/we grow older. Just the circumstances.

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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 12:16:09 PM

fyreredsub

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i would have to break out the dsmv-4 tr,lol, but sociopaths of any kind, borderlines ,narcissists....there are several d/ o about where the people just lie b/c that is how they are wired.

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"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 1:11:03 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

However, this is all very philosophical isn't it? How does this relate to simple one-on-one human interactions?

you don't wax philosophical when pondering deep questions like the one you raised? it has as much to do with one-on-one interactions as the philosophical golden rule does. a lot of folks are so brainwashed by the lies they have believed all of their lives they don't even recognize them to BE lies. there are folks that misinterpret another's intentions or actions and tell themselves and others lies about them in order to "make it right" in their own minds. their "truth" is subjective.

why do we lie to the unmentionables about Santa Clause? this slave just couldn't do it anymore once the oldest one had turned 5 and you wouldn't believe how pissed off "Grandma" was~accused this slave of "taking away her childhood"~after a heated discussion and some hurt feelings, it was forgiven and it remained the one and only time "Grandma" ever criticized this slave's choices for her unmentionables. all of the unecessary drama and hurt feelings over the perpetration(or not) of lies such as "Santa" seem to be a waste of energy, once you realize that most of us are lying to ourselves and others and don't even realize it or are unwilling to accept it if we do.

to be as brutally honest as one can with their thoughts and feelings takes an incredible amount of courage--you run the risk of no-one being there to listen. this slave has found that while most people claim to want honesty in their intimate relationships, they have a hard time accepting their own dishonesty--

ok,ok, a real life example complete with no names and vague-ness to protect the innocent:

on two seperate occasions over the last 6 months this slave has been in situations where the slaves were left alone to do things and the Master's were doing something else...anyway, in that alone time, the other slave says to this slave---"Hey, i'm going to do __________, but we won't tell our Master's ok?" to which this slave responded, BOTH times, "do whatever you want, but this slave isn't going to be hiding anything from Master, so if you are worried that He will tell YOUR Master, then perhaps you better tell Him yourself first." It might not have been earth shattering action or one that required deep philosophical understanding, but it helped this slave personally to have read Mr. Ruiz's wise thoughts on the subject, FOR SURE. this slave still considers them decent people, still interacts with them and hopes that her encouragement will help them to be honest with their Master's in the future, no matter what.

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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 1:11:53 PM

windy135

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ginawithaB

Thanx for all responses so far. Very interesting. But let me try re-phrasing the question this way:

What is so scary or threatening about truth that we avoid hearing it? Or telling it? And I'm not talking about the gray areas of the truth and the my truth vs your truth thing. I'm talking simple honesty.

Truth comes in many forms. Telling the truth and expressing honestly leaves you vulneralbe to pain. So one might ask, "why do we fear pain". Here is a quote I find very interesting,

"People are afraid of themselves, of their own reality; their feelings most of all. People talk about how great love is, but that's bullshit. Love hurts. Feelings are disturbing. People are taught that pain is evil and dangerous. How can they deal with love if they're afraid to feel? Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain."
- Jim Morrison-

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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 2:43:21 PM

DarknessCalls

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ginawithaB

Very serious question. Why is honesty so difficult in human relationships?

Interested in all thoughts, opinions, conjectures, possibilities thereto.

But I do ask for serious responses (not that I don't enjoy humor).

I haven't read this entire thread yet, so this may be redundant.

Honesty is so hard because to be honest means to drop your defenses and become emotionally naked before the one you are being honest with. To tell someone the truth about yourself gives them a deep insight and therefore power over you.

This is especially true about secrets and I think trifold true about sexual secrets. One need look no furhter than the kind of hell and ridicule Marv Albert went through when his private life was exposed to all.

To be completely honest with someone is saying, "this is my life, I trust you not to hurt me".

Few of us can do this.

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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 7:47:28 PM

Dracironsgirl

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i don't know ..i've often thought about that very same thing. i am a counselor and see it all the time ..it makes me sad to see this.

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RE: Honesty - 12/16/2005 12:41:26 PM

Webmaster60

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quote:

What is so scary or threatening about truth that we avoid hearing it? Or telling it? And I'm not talking about the gray areas of the truth and the my truth vs your truth thing. I'm talking simple honesty.

Simply? We cant handle the truth.. My favorite commercial is the one where the girl goes "honey, does this make me look fat"? To which he responds "You betcha". That guy is a god :)
Anyway, we've poluted ourselves in society? We don't want to risk OFFENDING anyone. But its to the point where you can't breath and NOT offend "someone". We started out by "shading" the truth, then manipulating the truth, to candy coating the truth, up until the point where we don't even know what the fuckign truth IS anymore. Our leaders? Did you fuck your secretary? NO.. I did not have sex with that woman. She only gave me head.. Jeeezus freaking christ.. But ya know what? We bought it! We decided that it was ok..
We have forgotten the one word that perhaps should drive our collective train.. "Honor".
Why can't we HEAR the truth? because we don't want to do the hard work that comes with the answer.

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Master Michael
~~~~~~~~~~
"To sin in silence when he should
speak makes cowards of men"

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