RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 6:58:51 AM)

Totally not kosher, but the male orgasm thread got me diving straight into the aquarium. 




MadAxeman -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:11:14 AM)

I'm in the castle




rulemylife -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:15:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


All this makes me think that this talk of free speech serves as an excuse to express the most violent and dangerous ideologies available to man. I do wonder why people tolerate the intolerable.



It's not an excuse, it's the very concept of free speech.

If you censor those opinions you find hateful and intolerable are you not being just as intolerant?




MadRabbit -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:31:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol It's not the first time I notice that a few posters seem to have a major hangup because they feel that being white gives them a harder time in our society (which is seriously weird, perverse and twisted to me, but perhaps it's a cultural thing).
 

I would call it mostly be annoyed by hypocrites who claim to be so "racially enlightened" but have blinders on to the fact that they really want a society that favors the races that they perceive as being "oppressed" and oppresses the races they perceive to be "not oppressed"

Those who battle with monsters should take care that they do not become monsters...

quote:

It's strange that the very people who are usually not on the receiving end of racial 'humour' and expressions of racial hatred should cry in favour of retaining them as a shining example of freedom of expression in this society. It's also strange to me how deaf they are to reason.


Deaf they are to reason....right.

Like the reason of censoring and limiting freedom expression because the pro-Obama thought police personally dislike what someone has to say.

That's almost as bad as the right wing nut jobs who want to thought police anyone who has anything bad to say about America and our government.

I wish more people were deaf to the idea of creating a society where we can't say things our people find offensive and can't protest if our protest isn't the "politically correct" one.

quote:

Meanwhile, an Ohio asswipe named Mike Lunsford hangs another effigy of Barrack Obama with the explanation that he doesn't want a black president (I am editing the more flowery language). The video of his exploits has been taken out of You Tube.


I think it's awesome that you have the ability to call that man an asswipe, kitten. I, for one, don't want to take it away.

quote:


All this makes me think that this talk of free speech serves as an excuse to express the most violent and dangerous ideologies available to man.


Which violent and dangerous ideologies?

How about speech that cites people to revolt against their government? That, in my eyes, qualifies as violent and dangerous. Perhaps we should restrict that, because we don't like it.

quote:


I do wonder why people tolerate the intolerable.
 

It's not about tolerating what people have to say. It's about tolerating their ability to say it. Then using our freedom of speech to object to it and oppose it in the act of not tolerating it.

We can't tolerate or not tolerate anything if it's censored and unable to be said.

quote:


I am not at all convinced that encouraging public racist discourse is in any way good for our society, but I have faith society is changing towards the better despite of this, and certainly because of it - after all, this election has brought a wind of hope to millions of people, and not just in America either.


It's not good for society.

But a society where people don't have the right to speak their mind because other people don't like it and find it offensive is far far worse.

If that's the society you advocate as a Pro-Obama supporter, then I am one step closer to casting my vote for McCain.




MadAxeman -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:31:29 AM)

Context is all.
Reminding a racial group that they were once summarily executed without trial or reason except being part of that group, is grossly offensive.
A few years ago David Beckham was sent off in a football (sorka) match, England lost and were out of the World Cup. Effigies of him were hung and burnt back in England, especially in Liverpool (home of his rival club). Beckham has since thrived and is doing so well he owns much of California. He is now buying Italy. It was also patently a 'harmless prank' which nonetheless was railed against for being in bad taste. Reprehensible, maybe nasty, but not relevant as a social statement.




kittinSol -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:35:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
If you censor those opinions you find hateful and intolerable are you not being just as intolerant?


Note: I am not asking for censorship. But I still ask: can you tolerate intolerance, and can you tolerate that persons who wish to rob democracy of its liberties actually use its platform of free expression in order to destroy it? It's problematic, and I don't have the answer.




giveeverything -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:35:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman
Can I be the red under your bed?


Rock lobster me, baby.

"red under the bed" and "rock lobsters" ..... oldies but goodies.  Y'all are killing me (in a great way!).




kittinSol -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:38:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
If that's the society you advocate as a Pro-Obama supporter, then I am one step closer to casting my vote for McCain.


Don't worry about me, MadRabbit: I can't vote anyway, and I am not a spokesperson for Obama - my ideas come from elsewhere.




MadRabbit -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:39:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Note: I am not asking for censorship.


I would find that note to be more beleivable if it wasn't for this obvious contradiction.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
free speech should not mean having the right to express any violent and inhuman impulses that may lurk beneath the surface of less enlightened individuals. 






lronitulstahp -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:41:23 AM)

quote:

 If that's the society you advocate as a Pro-Obama supporter, then I am one step closer to casting my vote for McCain. 


i don't know MR...it seems to me it wouldn't be cautious to judge either candidate by their supporters...you have seen Youtube, i presume?[;)]




rulemylife -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:45:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

Context is all.
Reminding a racial group that they were once summarily executed without trial or reason except being part of that group, is grossly offensive.
A few years ago David Beckham was sent off in a football (sorka) match, England lost and were out of the World Cup. Effigies of him were hung and burnt back in England, especially in Liverpool (home of his rival club). Beckham has since thrived and is doing so well he owns much of California. He is now buying Italy. It was also patently a 'harmless prank' which nonetheless was railed against for being in bad taste. Reprehensible, maybe nasty, but not relevant as a social statement.


When you start regulating what you deem offensive or what you find not relevant as a social statement where does that end?





kittinSol -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:47:32 AM)

quote:


And there was light... and her finger was on the switch.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Note: I am not asking for censorship.


I would find that note to be more beleivable if it wasn't for this obvious contradiction.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
free speech should not mean having the right to express any violent and inhuman impulses that may lurk beneath the surface of less enlightened individuals. 





How is it contradictory, if free speech is handled with care, a little like a gun?




MadAxeman -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:48:51 AM)

MadRabbit, you are falling for kittin's filth column tactics.
She's a neo nazi
Call her bluff and vote for Obama
That'll learn her.




kittinSol -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:51:46 AM)

Ah, the sound of leather boots drumming on the pavement! 




kittinSol -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:54:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I would call it mostly be annoyed by hypocrites who claim to be so "racially enlightened" but have blinders on to the fact that they really want a society that favors the races that they perceive as being "oppressed" and oppresses the races they perceive to be "not oppressed"


What does being "racially enlightened" mean? And what is a race?




rulemylife -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:58:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Note: I am not asking for censorship. But I still ask: can you tolerate intolerance, and can you tolerate that persons who wish to rob democracy of its liberties actually use its platform of free expression in order to destroy it? It's problematic, and I don't have the answer.



Kittin, we're often on the same side of issues on these boards, but I think you're making a circular argument here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying you don't want censorship unless it is censoring speech that you find intolerable.




giveeverything -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:59:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


What does being "racially enlightened" mean? And what is a race?

Kittin, so help me god, if you start a new thread on the social construction of race I will have to conduct somesort of sacraficial offering to all that is/or isn't holy (I'm not pagan so I don't even know what I'm doing).  This conversation goes round and round.  It seems like there are white folks who are quite happy to have their privlidge and don't want to be reminded of the consequences of that privlidge.  I can't help them.  Neither can you.  We can only wait until they die off (from natural causes) and a new and better enlightened generation takes over. 




MadAxeman -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 7:59:55 AM)

It's something humans do, but not always well




kittinSol -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 8:08:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying you don't want censorship unless it is censoring speech that you find intolerable.


No, that is not what I am saying. I am trying to tentatively argue in favour of responsible free speech and of possible legal consequences for inciting violence and hatred towards others.




MadRabbit -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/30/2008 8:21:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:


And there was light... and her finger was on the switch.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Note: I am not asking for censorship.


I would find that note to be more beleivable if it wasn't for this obvious contradiction.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
free speech should not mean having the right to express any violent and inhuman impulses that may lurk beneath the surface of less enlightened individuals. 





How is it contradictory, if free speech is handled with care, a little like a gun?



Because then it's not free.

Surely someone as smart of you can understand the opposition to "freedom" that "restrictions" has.




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