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RIAA trial December, check mate? - 10/30/2008 6:28:08 AM   
pahunkboy


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http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081029-riaa-defendant-enlists-harvard-law-prof-students.html

these kids have a point. This will be a must watch trial!    Universities have said that RIAA has gotten heavy handed.

So bright minds vs bright minds.  and we thought wretlemania was fun.

so- here we are- and I ask, yawn;  where is the NEW talent?  ild like to know.
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RE: RIAA trial December, check mate? - 10/30/2008 10:36:18 AM   
Termyn8or


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I could go on for days about this. I have already expressed what my particular defense would be, however I don't think they can use that in this case.

First of all it has been known to P2P users not to use Kazaa, in fact some suspect that Kazaa was planted by the RIAA to ensnare people. There are other programs that connect to the gnutella network like Overnet, Bearshare and a few others. There are also techniques people must use when doing this to avoid the problems. If these college kids don't know that, I don't know what to say.

Even though the RIAA has been doing well with the heavy handed approach, scaring people and such, the awards sought are absolutely insane. Normally in a court of equity actual damages are considered. Not in these cases though. They want to set an example.

In a criminal case it is up to the government to set an example as a deterrent, but the lines between big business and government are so blurred these days you can't even see it.

For example what if someone shoplifted some CDs and got caught. They might go to jail but any restitution would be based on actual damages. Sometimes punitive damages are awarded and in this case, the only way I could see that as being fairly adjudicated by a court of equity would be if someone intentionally distributed CDs of music either free or at such a low cost it was clear that their intention was malicious.

I have downloaded ALOT, and really there is a whole lot of it I intend to delete when I get around to my computer housekeeping phase, which will happen soon as my harddrive gets too full for the OS to run, well hopefully a bit before that happens. However those things that I keep are generally older,  and most of it has been in public domain. As such I can use that as a defense because I am part of the public and if this was in public domain and now is not, where is my money ? They are probably downloading new stuff and such a defense simply doesn't work.

Another defense would be an offset, based on the literally TONS of LPs, CDs, cassette and eight track tapes that would fill the courtroom as exhibit A. If they claim that the value is in the content rather than what form of media on which it is published, they owe me.  For every scratched up LP or CD, every tape that fails (which they did) they owe me replacement media. With my collection up in the attic, there is no way they could supply this.

Then there is the issue of content that simply cannot be bought legally. I'll give you a couple of examples. Glass Bottle - I Ain't Got Time Anymore, Hank Williams Sr. - Thirty Pieces Of Silver. I could go on about the old David Allen Coe stuff, just try to find that.

I also coudn't get Micheal Stanly Band - anything off the Stagepass album. It was one of the earlier concerts recorded at a bar in Cleveland called The Agora, which subsequently burned down. I bought that album twice, so I am entitled to the content. Same way with Bob Segar - Double Live Bullet. I bought that three times, twice on LP and once on CD, and the CD got lost on the way home never to be found. I never got a chance to play it. The albums had worn and picked up some (many) ticks and pops. I wanted to hear it clean, and I think I bought that right when I paid over fifteen bucks for thirty cents worth of vinyl and a cardboard record sleeve.

Another thing is the RIAA is not the musician's friend at all. When they sell a million copies you think the artist collected a million dollars ? Hell no. But the record company did.

It will be interesting to see what happens as events unfold. I hope these kids know that they are not playing with kids. They are playing with experienced, ruthless people whos' fortunes depend on this scam. They are dogmeat unless they know what they are doing.

T


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RE: RIAA trial December, check mate? - 10/30/2008 10:41:20 AM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

First of all it has been known to P2P users not to use Kazaa, in fact some suspect that Kazaa was planted by the RIAA to ensnare people. There are other programs that connect to the gnutella network like Overnet, Bearshare and a few others. There are also techniques people must use when doing this to avoid the problems. If these college kids don't know that, I don't know what to say.


the tool you use doesn't matter if you connect to a network...if you are on it..you are on it.
the protocols are the same
(and those blocklists give false security)

people on p2p are small fish anyway. The big guys use ftp (called dumps). They never expose they IP in public. Scene rules ;)

I hope at least the judges can reduce what the sttudents (and others have to pay) if they download 5 songs. Of course they should know it is illegal.
But to pay 1000 dollar for 5 songs is rediculous.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 10/30/2008 10:44:52 AM >

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RE: RIAA trial December, check mate? - 10/30/2008 10:50:15 AM   
pahunkboy


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Term, I think they have a shot of turning this on its head. I wondered why the intellectual community caved so fast.  But the hard line tactics...  demands it.

What a great way to do an internship- make a name for a young cyberlaw student.

The internet by design ISSSSSSSS file sharing.  It might be this post, a book, whatever.

The fact that the RIAA feels it did not get paid is not valid.

What jury is going to convict someone for a few songs?   Especially when the jury likely did so themself.

"piracy".  well that is ...criminal.  more so then civil by precedent- pirates on ships.   so the root of it is toward criminal, not civil.

indeed the RIAA has pushed for a czar to have criminal powers.   Bush just signed their law.

I wish these kids luck.    Oh and throw public domain out the window.  nothing is in the public domain.   the copywrites renew and for too long.

See my mp3 of me singing happy birthday/                   ------------------------

FUCK the RIAA.    they seek to control the internet and it is a new world.   I love a good courtfight.     Blood in the streets= fry the murtha fkkkers!

They need it. 

Even McCain who supports that posisiton, did not get legal permission to use a song at a rally.      thats pretty bad when this is so casual, that even he does it.

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RE: RIAA trial December, check mate? - 10/30/2008 12:29:32 PM   
Termyn8or


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JD, it sounds like you might know something here. I know you can't hide. However what they generally look for is alot of shared files. Bigger fish to fry, even if the chanrge is brought over a scant half dozen tunes.

Since you seem to know something I got a joke for you. This REALLY happened and this guy I know is probably go down someday. If I had proof he was doing something which is suspected I would take him down, but I don't.

He calls me up, it is fairly late at night and he screwed up. He typed in "kiddie porn" on Google. He gets a page that says his IP has been reported to the authorities and shuts down immediately.

Bound and determined he goes to the kids' and olady's PC and does the same damn thing. Now he wants to bring both PCs over and have them reloaded overnight but can't find any of the disks of course.

It is really so stupid that it's funny, but if he actually ever does anything illegal it might not be so funny anymore.

Oh, and the other punchline, he recently told me I should go into the computer field. I couldn't help it I cracked up in his ear on the phone. I said "After what you did ?". Then he wants to admonish me for saying what he did on the phone. This is after he actually TOLD ME ABOUT IT ON THE PHONE !

If you ever wonder why you can't figure certain people out, it's because there is nothing to figure sometimes. I used to wonder what went through people's heads, but no more. I know that the answer is NOTHING.

Anyway back to the point. I probably don't have time to read the entire DMCA but I would find it hard to believe that it has a provision for punitive damages sans malicious intent or profit on the part of the defendant.

If so, now we got case law. Not going there right now. But that's how it is, set a precedent and that is recognized.

We can't do much except to let the events unfold. It might be interesting. Like if the court awards the RIAA $15.99 for the cost of a CD and since their lawyers are all on a retainer, nothing for that. Of course court costs would be in the thousands, but see they don't get that money :-)

T

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RE: RIAA trial December, check mate? - 10/30/2008 12:48:04 PM   
pahunkboy


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I belong to  792 yahoo groups.      One shares mp3s.   A buddy wants a copy of  ABC tape...    

what if- the resources put into law suits, were put into location 2008 musical talent?    wouldnt that find benefit society more?

this fight is much bigger then joe the plumber realizes.     life forms are now patentable.

the idea of intellectual property is in need of reform.  what worked in the 70s no longer works.   in a way- the idea that ideas, knowledge, education is something one must monetize detracts from the public good.  Maybe if more people had more intellect that larger societal problems would be solved.

once the grid owns geneticly modified seeds, other life forms....   then who has a right to pull the plug?

I understand that workers have to get paid....  but this middleman, for a middleman for a middleman...   encroaches like a tax.

another thing on public domain- what works are stunningly timeless?   not much.  everything expires...and at a rate that it expires more.

we are shifting into dictator mode rules.     when you go to a website- you may do 1-2-3.  but not 5ak1.   only  1-2-3.  so while you have the freedom to do 1,2  or 3- that is the extent of it.   call a  call center.   1-2-3, even when you get a human- that human can not perform any functions outside of 1-2-3.   ask for a superviser,  likely her function might assist you 1-2 or 3, but certainly not 5.

Take a check out at the grocery store.  EVERY time I go to the chain store- my purchase must be over-ride.  which takes a 2nd employee.  the coupon figures, makes the system, stop, if your tab is too small....

so the RIAA wants you to consumer only their products-  you may not compete with them, think their thoughts- but do not secure these thought.  Your thoughts- after all can not really actaully bew owned by YOU, that my friend is owned soley by the grid.

(puff pufffffffffff)



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RE: RIAA trial December, check mate? - 10/30/2008 1:00:34 PM   
JustDarkness


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lol that guy was really stupid...for sure.

Overhere we pay a certain tax to an organisation like Riaa on blanc cd/dvd's. Therefor we are allowed to download music and movies.
The weird things is..we are not allowed to upload..lol
(but our justice department..has no priority on uploaders)

look for Mute if he wants the tapes

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 10/30/2008 1:05:51 PM >

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RE: RIAA trial December, check mate? - 10/30/2008 1:55:13 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy



What jury is going to convict someone for a few songs?   Especially when the jury likely did so themself.




If it is actually proven that the material was illegally downloaded and that the student in question did it, any jury really concerned with justice would -have- to convict, regardless of how many songs, and regardless of whether the jurors have ever illegally downloaded or currently illegally download.

The whole rule of law here is based on reasonable doubt. If the student can provide reasonable doubt that xhe was the one downloading or file sharing, there is the chance to avoid a conviction, but if the evidence is conclusive, the only -just- thing to do is convict.

This isn't a matter of "everyone does it" -- it is a matter of 'rule of law', and either the law is -worth- something or its not. If we don't -care- whether or not people download music, we need to eliminate copyright law, and make everything available to anyone who wants it. Musicians, artists, authors, etc., will no longer be able to make a living doing what they love... because nobody will have to pay for what the artists create.

I'm all for getting rid of the middle-man. Ditch the RIAA, SAG, the SWU and FWU -- let people distribute their art in any media and under any contract that looks right to them, or distribute directly to the customer (right now, if you don't belong to a big publishing or recording house, the chance of getting a 'bestseller' or 'hit record' is just about NIL). But saying that people should just be able to take what they want, without paying for it, is, in essence, saying that artist who take the time and energy to hone their craft shouldn't be paid for the effort they put forth, and that, too, is not right, IMO.

I am biased. I have three children who are artists, and I am an author. As it stands right now, as a genre author, and with the failure of a large number of print magazines, as fewer people read, more stuff is downloaded of the internet instead of being purchased or subscribed to, and with publishing houses going under, the chances of me being able to -ever- make a living as a full-time genre author are pretty slim. It is nice, though, to be able to earn a few bucks a year doing something that I love so very much.

The US, in particular, has become very selfish about our arts and our entertainment. On the one hand, sports 'stars' are signing multi-million-dollar contracts to toss a ball around a couple of months a year... on the other hand fewer of the arts are appreciated by 'the masses'. People don't read, don't attend live concerts... heck, in adjusted dollars, we're not even seeing as many movies as we used to. Sure, the box office dollar figures are higher, but each ticket costs substantially more than it did just 4 year ago -- and the money is mostly going into the pockets of the studios and the already-popular 'stars'... technicians, special effects artists, etc., get paid barely better than protocol writers at a hospital (who get paid less than a Blockbuster Video store manager with equivalent years of experience).

Turn the RIAA out on its ear... but don't screw the artists in the process by basically -stealing- their art and trying to justify it by saying that the RIAA (devil) made ya do it.

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 10/30/2008 1:56:45 PM >


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RE: RIAA trial December, check mate? - 10/30/2008 2:47:37 PM   
Termyn8or


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Calla, no they don't. The jury fully has the right to acquit for any reason, which may include that they may find the law unfit or the punishment too extreme, any reason they want. They are under no obligation to explain why whatsoever and that is exactly why juries exist.

They could make it illegal to have brown hair, until they see a properly informed jury about it. That is one of the Citizen protections built into our system of government.

What's more in a civil case, which this is, the only power of imprisonment the court has is via a contempt charge. Invoking that when a defendant is unable to pay effectively creates a debtor's prison, and no matter how far we have gone astray, no court wants to go there.

This is not a court of Law nor Admiralty, it is a court of Equity. In the career of a judge, the worst thing that can happen to them is to have their ruling(s) overturned. Even using the power of the contempt charge, if a higher court overrules the contempt charge, it came in spades. It is even worse.

T

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RE: RIAA trial December, check mate? - 10/30/2008 5:48:01 PM   
pahunkboy


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Dear Calla,

Most people have no problem with paying the artist.   Let me ask you a question.  How would you arrange the copywrite laws or other so as to grow the arts?   I do not believe that the good stuff is getting out.

Being that we are now a society of fear, not hope;  and everything is gearing up for lock down, I think our days as a prime culture are numbered.   No one is going to build a better dream that will take us to tomorrow. Some other society where openness is encouraged will take tomorrow from us.  If we are lucky.  One line of thought is that we are on the eve of a new dark ages.

I do not know what type of model will work that is fair. What do you think would work?

Being that traditional royalties are so low.... (to the artist) it is easier to simply download it.

As to non music- it is all time dated.  Obsolete quickly.   Tech, science, business....    maybe fiction lasts these days.

For as bizzare as the world is- there SHOULD be a heck of alot ,more talent then what I see.

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RE: RIAA trial December, check mate? - 10/30/2008 5:56:06 PM   
slaveboy291


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Homefucking is ruining the prostitution industry.
Eating homecooked meals is hurting the restaurant industry
The guy with his own tomato garden is hurting produce
People owning their own homes is hurting apartments

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