RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/7/2008 3:53:42 PM)

And I'm sure America will take your opinion under advisement....in the zero credibility bin...right under the grateful he grew up in a free land guareteed and maintained by American force of arms bin...as I have said zero credibility and to me a waste of time arguing with.....enjoy your American bashing in truth it means a hill of beans to me.




meatcleaver -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/7/2008 3:55:47 PM)

That is why you keep replying. I'm getting under your skin because you know I'm right.

Anyway, I've got to go, there is a bar waiting for me.




slvemike4u -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/7/2008 4:02:21 PM)

See that is a fine example of you logic...I reply disputing your venom,and you see that as evidence you are getting under my skin"proving I know your right.News flash all it proves is you have succeeded in being an irritant,if that is good enough for you ...so be it,I strive to be correct and to know what I'm talking about...you seek to be annoying.different strokes for different folks,all is good.Enjoy your bar.




Irishknight -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/7/2008 4:51:01 PM)

MC, we dropped the bomb on Japan to warn Russia?  You mean it had nothing to do with ending wwII?  It had nothing to do with avoiding what would have been the longest and bloodiest land battle in world history?  I think I missed something.




slvemike4u -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/7/2008 5:21:04 PM)

Yep IK,you missed the "America is the source of all evil in the world" class....silly man.




meatcleaver -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 3:09:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

MC, we dropped the bomb on Japan to warn Russia?  You mean it had nothing to do with ending wwII?  It had nothing to do with avoiding what would have been the longest and bloodiest land battle in world history?  I think I missed something.


I think you will find that is the interpretation by several prominent historians of recorded conversations and reports of meetings between Trueman and the advisors he inherited from FDR.

Towards the end of the war, the USSR was becoming a bigger concern to the USA and to Churchill (though not to his socialist cabinet) than the already defeated Japanese. Japan had been suing for peace a long time before the US dropped the bomb so dropping the bomb wasn't necessary to get Japan to surrender. It was dropped to warn off the USSR.

If you read about the conversations at Yalta between the three leaders, you will start to understand the thinking and paranoia that led to such a policy.




slvemike4u -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 9:53:03 AM)

Strictly a side benefit,meatcleaver not the sole purpose of.   As to Japan suing for peace,once again you take partial truths and run with them,The Allies had agreed ,at Casablanca, on unconditional surrender as a prerequisite to any peace overtures .Japan afraid that America would depose/charge the Emperor was determined to the point of advising it's citizens of their obligation to fight to the last breath the invaders.Lending credence to this version of the "truth" is the fact that Japan still didn't surrender after Hiroshima necessitating Nagasaki,if you want to make an argument about the necessity of the second bomb feel free to,but as usual your analyisis is colored by your hate of all things American.




meatcleaver -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 10:24:00 AM)

Just as the blanket bombing of Hamburg and Dresden were recognized as war crimes at the time, Churchill trying to lump all the blame on Bomber Harris although Churchill Oked the strategy so was the nuking of Japan.

Do me a favour about the second bomb, Japan was reeling. There was three days between the bombing, hardly time to take in what was happening.




slvemike4u -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 11:03:20 AM)

Unconditional surrender is just that,unconditional.It was incumbent on Japan's leaders to accept these terms to spare their people more suffering,instead in an effort to preserve their Emperor,they continued their desperate attempts (kamikaze attacks,suicides at Okinawa,preparations for arming the populace to defend the home islands) at what point do the Japanese leaders take responsibility for what befell Hiroshima and Nagasaki.....easy to blame Truman,but his first responsibility were to the American serviceman who would have asked to mount this invasion.




meatcleaver -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 11:13:12 AM)

I've never heard such an absurd rationalization. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a planned attack on unarmed innocent civilians.

The only condition the Japanese asked for was the preserving of its Emperor which the Americans later agreed to so why was there a need to kill 220,000 civilians?

When you kill an innocent person, you make the decision, it's ludicrous to say the guilt is with the dictator or oligarchy of a country. Would you allow an Arab to rationalize away 9/11 with a similar excuse?




NorthernGent -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 11:22:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

One can't look at history as one event. Japan wanted to be left alone in the 19th century, the US forced Japan to open its ports and sign what became known to the Japanese as the humiliation of the unequal treaties. Britain was another western country involved, they forced treaties on China. That is the seed from which Japanese militarism grew. Japan could see that if it didn't modernize, it would become a western colony. Once Japan got to some strength, it wanted what western countries had, empires and it wasn't just Europe that had empires, the US made imperial expansions into the Pacific. So the idea that the Japanese invasion of Mancuria was bad, what are we to make of western imperial powers (US included) subjugating lands in the Pacific? Western countries portraying themselves as victims of Japanese aggression while not accepting their own aggression is a refusal of western countries to take a good look at themselves. The US was an aggressive power, as was Britain, as was several European countries. What the fuck was all these western countries doing in that region of the world, setting up vacation destinations or ripping off the locals? The mistake Japan made was to be more brutal to the people in lands they conquered than westerners, otherwise they would probably have been welcomed as liberators.

This Japanese officer is doing exactly the same as westerners do, Europeans and Americans, pretending to be innocent victims when both were as bad as each other.



Spot on, Meat.




slvemike4u -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 11:24:21 AM)

Hey Meat....war is hell.And in actuality the only justification Truman needed was the projected numbers of American serviceman who would have died.Truman was the American President,not the protectorate of innocent Japanese civilians.Total war is just that total....When America is attacked prior to a declaration of war,she tends to get pissed,not a good idea to piss off America  meat,perhaps you should keep this in mind....[:D]




slvemike4u -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 11:46:06 AM)

Another thought for you to ponder meat,if you shall assign blame solely to America for the civilian deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki(I concede America caused the deaths by dropping the bombs,we are discussing guilt here) Shall you credit America for the lives that were spared as a result of Japan not having to defend the Home Islands.....care to take a guess as to how many casualties might have ensued,on both sides ,civilian and military?




NorthernGent -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 12:14:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Hey Meat....war is hell.And in actuality the only justification Truman needed was the projected numbers of American serviceman who would have died.Truman was the American President,not the protectorate of innocent Japanese civilians.Total war is just that total....When America is attacked prior to a declaration of war,she tends to get pissed,not a good idea to piss off America  meat,perhaps you should keep this in mind....[:D]



The interesting point, aside from Meat being absolutely correct that the American Empire is to all intents and purposes of the same stock as the British Empire, is that it will inevitably end in the same manner: over-stretched, far too smug for its own good and, ultimately, bankrupt (financially as well as morally).




slvemike4u -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 12:29:26 PM)

Well if you don't mind Northern Gent we in the former colonies would prefer to muddle along as we have been doing searching for our own unique destiny,despite the dire predictions of others.




NorthernGent -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 12:44:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Well if you don't mind Northern Gent we in the former colonies would prefer to muddle along as we have been doing searching for our own unique destiny,despite the dire predictions of others.



Don't mind me, squire, I'm just making hay while the sun shines......'no intentions of getting my fingers in your pies above and beyond making an observation. You muddle away 'til your heart's content.




LadyEllen -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 12:56:06 PM)

Three things to note I feel

1) there is neither shame nor guilt to be had or allocated to a nation in general when it comes to foreign policy - thus there is no need for those whom some might blame for their country's foreign policy to defend their nation from such accusation

2) the USA, to the huge consternation of the UK and France, handed eastern and central Europe to the Soviets as gambling chips - the pot being to hinder the Soviets from heading east following the defeat of the axis, and becoming involved and taking territory in Japan and the areas conquered and still occupied by Japan on the Asian mainland - so preserving Japan free from Soviet influence. As it was, Stalin was ready to take on the Japanese on the mainland - and some units did engage, but were badly mauled by the Japanese. The use of atom bombs on the Japanese was undoubtedly part of the gamble with the same pot in mind, as well as a means of ensuring Japanese capitulation, but to argue that it was only the former and not the latter is to ignore the targets chosen - densely populated cities; the deterrent effect on the Soviets could have been achieved without such overt destruction of human life.

3) in war, it must be war - no quarter unless there is total surrender. It is ridiculous to stand at some distance from all this and try to discuss the morality of either Dresden or Hiroshima as if our position of safety and security gives us some greater insight than those who were there and then involved in pursuing the horror to its conclusion.





slvemike4u -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 12:56:31 PM)

That we will do Gent guy,as allways.When we find time, and as it becomes inevitable ,we shall keep propping up the U.K. while we are at it......




LadyEllen -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 1:02:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

we shall keep propping up the U.K. while we are at it......


Dont be so silly. This sort of attitude is what has landed the US (and UK) in very hot water over the last eight years.

The relationship is a simple one - we've been here and done all this for a very long time, we're the expert advisors that the US profits from when it chooses to listen - the problem being it hasnt listened and meanwhile we've gone along with things much against the wisdom of centuries of imperial adventure. The US may be the superpower but its still a child when it comes to all this stuff.

The relationship needs to be rebuilt with this understanding in mind. Difficult to swallow maybe, but look what has happened when it has broken down.

E




NorthernGent -> RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII (11/8/2008 1:04:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

That we will do Gent guy,as allways.When we find time, and as it becomes inevitable ,we shall keep propping up the U.K. while we are at it......



Mike, it's Saturday night........I'm having a beer, and at this moment in proceedings I really don't need a 'we're-better-than-you' cycle of ultimately pointless mind violence. When I need a conversation that engenders roughly the same inspiration as a slow, painful death, then I'll revisit your post. Until then, all the best.




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