Faith Based Healing (Full Version)

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MadRabbit -> Faith Based Healing (11/3/2008 11:15:21 PM)

I decided to post this in this forum, because there is a wide variety of atheists and theists who post here and I am looking for a broad range of opinion.

I'm an Atheist and I have been attending a non-denominational church that hosts lectures and small group discussion attempting to educate people on the Christian faith.

This now the 9th session out of a total of 10. Prior to this night, I had not heard anything I hadn't heard before. The same concepts, same arguments, all the same stuff that I had already encountered and thought through. Finally, however, I found what I was looking for. A new subject that I had not considered or had much experience with that would literally shake me up and challenge my position as an Atheist. This subject was the healing of physical ailments via pray.

Rather than rehash the entire story of the night, I figured I would list the events that happened that caused me to consider this to be valid.
  • To my utter amazement and disbelief, I came to realize I was sitting in a room with 50 other people who considered this to be a valid practice
  • During the course of the lecture, a young girl gave a personal testimony to having a chronic headache over the course of 7 years of her life that doctors rather loosely diagnosed as being the result of food allergies. She had a few faith based healing in the beginning.
  • The speaker gave a personal testimony to having neck pain cured by faith based healing.
  • During small group discussion, the majority of the Christians gave personal testimony to having witnessed the curing of arthritis, blindness, and cripple during faith based healing sessions and retreats.
  • One of the participants in the group gave testimony to the healing of bones in his hand that doctors had originally said would need to be fixed via surgery. After the healing session, he was able to miraculously close his hand completely for the first time. Later, doctors said he would not be needing surgery and had never seen any sort of recovery like his before in 30 years of practicing medicine.

Now I am still skeptical, because despite all these personal testimonies, the group attempted to do healing via pray on a person with knee and hip pain, a person in need of shoulder surgery, and a person who's shoulders disfigurement.

At the end the results were as follows....

The disfigured shoulder was still disfigured.
The person with knee pain said it "felt a lot better", but her hip still hurt.
The person with the shoulder injury said it felt "different".

Now, of course, the explanation for this lack of results was apparently the inconsistency of God's answers to prayers which is apparently quite common in faith based healing.

However...

The sheer experience of being around so many people, many of them quite intelligent and educated, who sincerely believed this to be a valid practice combined with the large number of testimonies of incidents has, to be honest, shaken me up a bit. I can't sleep at 2am, because for the first time in my life, I have encountered serious reconsideration on my Atheist stance.

So, in addition to the research I am doing on this, I was hoping to get opinions, experiences, information and sources from anyone who cared to offer any regarding the question of...

Is this bullshit?



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/3/2008 11:25:57 PM)

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/placebo.html



RCdc -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/3/2008 11:29:52 PM)

Firstly MR - I hope you do not mind me asking - is this an alpha course?  Or such like?
Secondly, yes it can occur (personal experience) and no it's not bullshit.  Now whether you can attribute the healing to an external force of some deity or whether faith in being healed has a lot to do with it(belief of mid), is another thing entirely.
 
the.dark.



MadRabbit -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/3/2008 11:41:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Firstly MR - I hope you do not mind me asking - is this an alpha course?  Or such like?
Secondly, yes it can occur (personal experience) and no it's not bullshit.  Now whether you can attribute the healing to an external force of some deity or whether faith in being healed has a lot to do with it(belief of mid), is another thing entirely.
 
the.dark.


Yes, it's an Alpha course. I went with a buddy to see what it was all about and decided to finish it.

What kind of healing are we talking about?

I can comprehend inorganic ailments such as headaches, physical pain, etc that can be dealt with by placebo and power of suggestion as documented by a number of reports I read. Hell, there is even cases of arthritis being cured via placebo.

The broken bones bit tends to make me think, but there is cases of broken bones healing in the span of 6 days when it would normally take 6 weeks without any usage of pray nor any explanation according to modern science.

That leaves organic ailments which some people at the group are making the claim to have seen cured via faith based healing and so far I cannot find a single piece of information ever documenting or providing testament to that ever happening. In fact, all the information I have found, whether Christian or Atheist based, has consistently supported that faith healing never has.




MadRabbit -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/3/2008 11:46:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/placebo.html


Thanks



Shekicromaster -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/3/2008 11:57:33 PM)

There might be some truth in this, but there most certainly is a lot of faking and simple psychology.   Especially in this modern massive charismatic meetings manipulating with „hysteria of masses“ basically the same mechanism you can see on football games or political meetings.  Somehow it seems that the more people are in such a place and stronger the „authority figure“ of the „charismatic leader“  less intelligent and skeptical the individual is.   It might be possible that it helps people even just on the basis of suggestion and faith, mind can make wonders. But it is also often the case that someone is convinced he is hilled let's say from cancer and dies a few months later... obviously the cancer was as convinced as his host.   Some people I know that attended such things (I never did and can't speak from experience) also told me about some very obvious manipulative tactics rather perplexed with how easily people were deceived. For example the priest would ask them to write down their problems on peaces of paper. It was collected in a basket for a group to prey above it. Than a little later he joined the group praying over it i the back stage.. after coming back he would „miraculously“ talk about specific illnesses in the auditorium „God told him about“ :D :D   But I will not dismiss the possibility of faith healings completely, just recommend a lot of skeptic caution, especially with massive movements.



RCdc -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/4/2008 12:01:59 AM)

Ok... I used to 'teach and inform' at alpha course.  I asked you, because I wanted to make sure that I knew what I am 'up against'.(I know that sounds confronting and judgemental).
For information, I removed myself from the alpha course after discovering it's intent is to convert and that I was given a 'percentage'.  I was not comfortable with that, nor was I comofrtable with much of the agenda of the alpha course.  I did not and do not support it's abuse of peoples trust.
 
The reason I was 'chosen' to teach and inform was because of my experiences.  My issue isn't with healing via prayer or laying of hands, but the way the course works.
 
As to the question, it is difficult to pin down faith based healings - documentation is going to be rare and on the occasions when there is some sort of 'healing' it's usually listed as remission or unknown.  Mine was kidney problems.  I can't explain it.  I don't really want to.  It happened and they are better, have been for over 15 years, the doctors ok'd them and that's what counts to me.  I am not of the mind that healing will occur just because you might pray for another.  I really do have a big belief that just like and with any illness you have to want to get better and ones self faith is a big factor.
 
I do believe that the human body is an extraodinary piece of kit and we don;t understand it.
My one piece of advice though MR is that the alpha course is a great resource for learning granted, but please watch your back and your friends back.
 
the.dark.



heartcream -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/4/2008 12:06:28 AM)


This reminds me of this guy




cjan -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/4/2008 4:59:09 AM)

MR, you know, some people claim to get pain relief from magnets, prayer, reiki, etc. Then there are placebos which "work" for some people. The mind and beliefs are powerful things. They can produce pain and illness as well as "cures".

I work a lot with people who are in pain and I don't argue or doubt their anecdotal experience. If it works to relieve their pain, for whatever reason, more power to them.



sirsholly -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/4/2008 5:06:01 AM)

I have a different view of  faith based healing. Rather then a devine miracle taking place i have always felt it is the belief that healing will occur...thus activating the amazing healing powers of the mind.



RCdc -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/4/2008 5:09:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

I have a different view of  faith based healing. Rather then a devine miracle taking place i have always felt it is the belief that healing will occur...thus activating the amazing healing powers of the mind.


I tend to agree.  What I find hard to swallow is when people make the claim that they are healers and take the credit.
 
the.dark.



Marc2b -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/4/2008 7:41:59 AM)

Someone once said (I forget who so all due credit to whoever credit is due) that people will pray for the probable (please let mom’s airplane land safely), the possible if not necessarily probable (Please let Uncle John come out of his coma), but that they will never pray for the obviously impossible (please grow cousin Jane a new leg).  This tells you something fundamental about prayer and faith healing.



NuevaVida -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/4/2008 7:55:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

I have a different view of  faith based healing. Rather then a devine miracle taking place i have always felt it is the belief that healing will occur...thus activating the amazing healing powers of the mind.


I tend to agree.  What I find hard to swallow is when people make the claim that they are healers and take the credit.
 
the.dark.


I agree with both of you.

My sister-in-law was inflicted with terrible back problems, resulting in 6 surgeries by the time she was in her early 20s. She was told she likely would be unable to carry a pregnancy to term without remaining in bed, because her back wouldn't support it. She did some research on faith based healing, and went to a group for awhile...they laid hands on her, prayed, meditated, did what they do. Since then (27 years ago) she has had no more back issues, and carried two pregnancies without issue.

Even she doesn't quite know what to credit this to, but suspects it has a lot to do with the power of intention and on placing her focus on healing, rather than on suffering.

The mind can do incredible things. I have skepticism that such things come from whatever Deity one believes in, but from focusing on healing and a genuine belief in one's ability to do so.



mc1234 -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/4/2008 8:01:52 AM)

We had an older family member who contracted lung cancer.  He is highly religious, and when his cancer went into surprising remission, everyone chalked it up to what a religious man he is, how much he must have pleased God, etc.  It offended me because why would God choose to heal one person, but not, say, the mother of four who died of a brain tumor? 

I think it's all a matter of us simply not understanding yet how the body works and those who choose to believe saying it's 'God' healing them rather than something we just don't know about yet. I don't put stock in faith healing at all.  And I'm a fairly religious person myself. 



camille65 -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/4/2008 8:07:01 AM)

It bothers me when someone is insistent on using faith based healing for a life threatening condition and totally ignoring the medical aspect. I'm fine with a blend, I've always felt that most doctors completely ignore the results that faith can bring but I also knew a child who was desperately ill and her mother hauled her from tent preacher to tent preacher. Eventually the child died because medical technology was not used.

Does faith based healing work?
I don't know. But I do know that attitude in the patient can make a huge difference and sometimes that attitude is directly tied into their faith.



MadRabbit -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/4/2008 8:22:36 AM)

Thanks for all the replies, guys.

Now there is a lot of evidence of similiar phenomena outside the realm of faith based healing. Body pain, headaches, and arthiristis have documented cases of being healed/cured via the power of suggestion and placebo. The accelarated regeneration of broken bones in people with no medical explanation has occured with our without prayer.

However, some of the people at the group were crossing the line from inorganic ailments and accelerated healing to actual physical organic ailments being cured by the miracle of God. Cancer, blindness, and physical cripples were all supposedly healed at faith healing sessions.

Now this is a big deal to me, because we're going from symptoms and ailments that can be explained via the power of the mind/body connection to actual miracles. Whether or not, this is true is a rather big deal to me because either a) there is evidence out there of religion going from merely powerful metaphysical experiences to the physical level or b) these people are peddling bullshit in order to sell people the Christian faith.

I've yet to find one peice of information that provides a medically verifiable experience of an organic and uncurable ailment being fixed via faith based healing.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/4/2008 8:49:02 AM)

quote:

Is this bullshit?

No, it's not.

The rituals associated with Christian "faith-based" healing practices seem to be approximately analogous to the meditative postures and practices of the Oriental healing art of Qigong (Chi-Kung).

Setting aside the metaphysical questions of God and whether prayers are answered, much of "faith based" healing fundamentally becomes a matter of allowing the body to heal itself--for which it has considerable (and as yet largely unexplored) capacity.

Qigong does not work for all ills, nor does a "faith-based" ritual. Neither will set a broken bone, nor restore a dislocated joint to its socket. However, saying something does not work in all cases is quite far from saying it does not work, period.

Is faith-based healing "bullshit"? No, far from it. Is it a healthy alternative to traditional medicine? No, far from it.



candystripper -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/4/2008 8:54:30 AM)

MadRabbit, by its nature faith is not subject to 'proof' in the ordinary sense.  The effect of a deliberate 'act' of prayer, etc. is infused with meaning by each viewer One will look at a subsequent improvement or perceived improvement in whatever they sought to affect, and say  'faith healed her' while another will look at the same act and event, and say 'the mind affects the body'. 
 
They are both right -- because only the viewer can decide what was the cause.  The faith-person agrees that prayer can induce an altered state of conciousnesss, in mediation, mysticism, etc. but sees that as further 'proof' that a deity/supernatural force/dead ancestor/etc. was involved.  The mind/body person looks and sees 'proof' that there is nothing beyond what we know here in this life. 
 
They are both right, but each is *only* right as to himself.
 
It is not just western or even 'living' cultures that have had 'religions' that provided for a higher power(s) and an ability to beseech it/them.  It's so prevalent that it seems it must fill a shared need of humans generally.  
 
Still, some amazing stuff has been observed.  Just to give you one example, there is a factual basis for the zombie myth protrayed nowadays in horror movies.  There really have been people who have been somehow 'dead' and certainly buried, then later disinterred and once 'revived', never again quite the same...always sort of 'out of it'. 
 
I was bumfuddled to learn this. 
 
There's alive and dead, period, I had always thought.  No third catagorey of 'undead'.
candystripper   [sm=pole.gif]



mc1234 -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/4/2008 9:06:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I've yet to find one peice of information that provides a medically verifiable experience of an organic and uncurable ailment being fixed via faith based healing.


Well, therein lies the rub, so to speak - you want facts to base the faith on.  It's not going to happen, not in a scientific study or anything that would make you feel comfortable with it.  Or if it does exist, I've never heard of it. 

I teach a religious class to 2nd graders.  I stand in front of them and teach them all sorts of things that they are supposed to take on faith, and they do - they marvel and say 'ooh' and 'aah' and innocently accept it.  I sometimes envy their ability to just accept and not question.  But then again, questions such as the one you're dealing with now sometimes can make a very strong, intellectual kind of faith rather than the innocent one children accept.  Questioning is valuable, even if it's damn confusing and difficult at times. 



SilverMark -> RE: Faith Based Healing (11/4/2008 9:08:39 AM)

Do I believe that one can lay hands upon another and cure them....not really...I do however believe that a combination of medical treatment as well as
spiritual treatment(for a lack of a better term) indeed can work as well as help people through trying health issues. It would be great if Benny Hinn could cure cancer in his sermons etc. but, I don't think he can. Attitudes of those who are ill are indeed one of the most important aspects of wellness and health. Last spring I went through a period of Cluster Headaches, the rarest form and most severe of headaches....I took my meds, I continued to exercise I kept my thoughts positive and finally got better.
It was no miracle, it was not faith based and I had a great Dr. who encouraged me to function as well as I could and to continue as I would normally whenever I could.
If Benny Hinn or any of those other guys could have cured my ailment...I would have jumped in line!....It took a Duke and Harvard Med. Grad and great meds and a positive mental attitude and I got through them!..Not so sure about faith based healing but, spiritual based I have faith in! <and some really good science to go along with it>



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