RE: Rewarding Failure

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cpK69 -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 1:14:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah So how is the bailout NOT rewarding Failure? Steel Because I don't believe the intent was to look out for the people to begin with. There's failure, for sure, but just like the with the kid who gets passed on without having learned; it's not theirs. Kim

Mercnbeth -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 1:28:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Merc do you know another tune,this one is played out.Up to now the government has not prevented people from being evicted from their homes,and yet you insist on including this claim in your litany of gripes.Apparently you are a successful man,how did you get so bitter? Mike, you misinterpret pragmatic fact for bitterness. I assure you there is nobody sweeter than I! The question was posed - I answered it. quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight However, we are not rewarding failure with the bailout, we are encouraging irresponsibility. Semantics - encouraging irresponsibility or rewarding failure - the result is the same. quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub C'on Merc... leave us ADHD folk out of this... [sm=oops.gif] My apologies Aquatic, I did reference that "some" people use it as an excuse. For sure, I would have been labeled ADHD in elementary school for sure!I only wish I got a pill or two instead of a nun's backhand! I wouldn't be suffering from so much brain damage. [sm=donttaseme.gif] quote: There's failure, for sure, but just like the with the kid who gets passed on without having learned; it's not theirs. Someone else's fault! Completing the triad of lies concerning rationalizing failure and/or bailouts: Good Intent Consider the Children! It's NOT Their or MY Fault! Damn - I think if those were acceptable we can empty the the prisons and put everyone on the government payroll for $249,999.99/family. (Avoiding that tax increase)

cpK69 -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 1:49:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: There's failure, for sure, but just like the with the kid who gets passed on without having learned; it's not theirs. Someone else's fault! Completing the triad of lies concerning rationalizing failure and/or bailouts: Good Intent Consider the Children! It's NOT Their or MY Fault! Damn - I think if those were acceptable we can empty the the prisons and put everyone on the government payroll for $249,999.99/family. (Avoiding that tax increase) If we assumed intent was to work for the people, being an asset to our country; then I would have no arguement against the idea of calling it rewarding failure. The problem is, I don’t believe it was. I think these people were greedy. They wanted things they didn't deserve, and they got it; therefore, they didn’t fail. Steel said… quote: The Fact that they have gotten to KEEP this money is the Failure. ...which I believe is accurate, but you don’t lay a meal out for greed, then say it failed after it has eaten. Important to note; I’m not for rewarding greed, but I did want to try to understand why it was being called "rewarding failure". Kim

Mercnbeth -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 1:54:26 PM)
quote: Important to note; I’m not for rewarding greed, but I did want to try to understand why it was being called "rewarding failure". Without a bailout - the company would close. Without a bailout moratorium on executing mortgage defaults - the property would be foreclosed. Without a mandatory trophy - the child would not have earned one. Any positive result from an action or decision that fails is a reward for that failure. 'Rewarding Failure' is a way to summarize all the possible eventualities for negative consequence generating positive results for the perpetrator.

cloudboy -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 2:39:42 PM)
Basically, large scale corruption and "ponzi scheme" real estate thinking went wild in the US mortgage market. Alan Greenspan didn't think such bad lending would take place in the private sector because he believed financial firms would observe fiduciary duties to their shareholders. The SEC chairman basically didn't believe his agency had any role in what was happening. Just a fucking mess. A trillion dollar war in IRAQ layered over this financial mess. Its just been sad governance these past eight (8) years.

SteelofUtah -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 2:40:34 PM)
See now we are getting into a whole different argument. It is a Failure Because the system that WE are all responsible for allowed for this to happen in the first place. The Power WE gave to certain entities by our elected officials in what is a Representatorship NOT a DEMOCRACY like people keep calling it. We allowed this practice to go on UN CHECKED. There was NO ONE watching who's hands were going into the cookie Jar and it was allowed in the attempt to get a lighter rule on Morgages. This Lighter rule ended with no one having to be accountable for a god damned thing. The Failure is WE (The American We for our foreign readers) allowed it to happen. Read the Constitution specially the part about Taxation without representation and how oddly enough TODAY we pay the second highest Tax in the WORLD and all because WE (you, your fathers and thier fathers and theirs before that) allowed people who have the power to speak for all of us and yet not actually have to listen to us. That is the Failure and now we just Pay it out, We use the word BILLION like it is Nothing but 700 BILLION is Rewarding a Failure that has come slowly ovet the last 200 years. That is where the Failure and the Intent lies. Call your State Representative and ask for a meeting see how long it takes and how much time you will get and how they will look at you as you say what you have every right to say to them. Steel

SteelofUtah -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 2:48:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Just a fucking mess. A trillion dollar war in IRAQ layered over this financial mess. Its just been sad governance these past eight (8) years. Uhhhhh Do your History Homework cloudboy, The Morgage issue started under Clinton but recieved MUCH HELP from the previous policy of Carter. I am sure no matter how far back you go you will see decisions being made in all the different presidential terms that helped to lead the way for the next. I will not deny that the War in Iraq is overpriced but it's too late now we are there, knowing the history of the country do you really think it's a good idea to just go "Sorry Guy's New Guy in Office No hard Feelings right?" do your history and I mean REALLY do your History and you will see that the Conservative have not been the only power, power has changed hands and each president has been responsible for some of the mess left for the next as well as being responsible for not cleaning up as much of the mess as they said they would. Steel

slvemike4u -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 2:48:22 PM)
Merc,after I posted my last I did regret the bitter characterisation...and I apologise for that.On the other hand you do keep beating this drum,and lately you have been adding an additional gripe,that of a moratorium on foreclosures.Do you know something I don't,as far as I know though there has been talk of such a moratorium, no such action has been taken as of yet.And BTW PE Obama ,when he proposed such a measure did qualify it to limit it to homeowners of primary residence's who have exhibited good faith efforts to uphold there obligations.

BitaTruble -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 3:07:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah Read the Constitution specially the part about Taxation without representation and how oddly enough TODAY we pay the second highest Tax in the WORLD Where are you getting that information? First # = corp tax Second # = individual rate Third # = VAT Taxation w/out representation only applies to citizens, not corporations, so I'll assume you're speaking about individual income taxes which will be the second number under each country. USA isn't even close to be second. Australia, Austria, Belgium, China, Denmark, Germany, Gibraltar, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan.. well, you get the idea .. all have higher individual top tiers than the US and that's just individual taxes and doesn't include VAT (value added tax). Argentina 35% 9-35% 21% Australia 30% 17-47% 10%GST Austria 25% 21%-50% 20%GST Belgium 33.99% 25-50% 21% Brazil 34% 15-27.5% 17-25% Bulgaria 10% 10% 20% Canada 19.5%(federal) 15-29%(Federal) 5%(gst) China 25% 5-45% 17% Cyprus 10% 20-30% 15% Czech Rep. 21% 15% 19% Denmark 24% 38-59% 25% Egypt 20% 10-20% - Estonia 22% 22% 18% Finland 26% 8.5-31.5% 22% France 33.33% 10%-48.09% 19.6% Germany 30-33%(effective) 15-45% 19% Gibraltar 33% 0-40% - Greece 22/25% 0-40% 19% Hong kong 17.5% 2-17% - Hungary 16% 18% and 36% 20% India 30-40% 10-30% 12.5% Indonesia 10-30% 5-35% 10% Ireland 12.5% 20-41% 21% Israel 27% 10-47% 15.5% Italy 31.4% 23%-43% 20% Japan 30% 5-40% 5%(consump) Latvia 15% 25% 18% Lithuania 15% 15%/24% 18% Luxemburg 22% 0-38% 15% Malta 35% 15-35% 18% Mexico 28% 0-28% 15% Monaco 33.33% 0% 19.6% Morocco 35% 0-41.5% 20% Montenegro 9% 15% 17% Netherlands 20-25.5% 0-52% 19% New Zealand 33% 0-39% 12.5%gst Norway 28% 28-51.3% 25% Pakistan 35% 0-25% 15% Philippines 35% 5-32% 12% Poland 19% 19-40% 22% Portugal 25% 0-42% 20% Romania 16% 16% 19% Russia 24% 13% 18% Saudi Arabia 20% 20% -- Serbia 10% 10-20% 18% Singapore 18% 3.5%-20% 7% (gst) Slovakia 19% 19% 19% Slovenia 22% 16%-41% 20% South Africa 29% 24-43% 14% Spain 30% 24-43% 16% Sweden 28% 0-56% 25% Taiwan 25% 6-40% 5% Thailand 30% 5-37% 7% Turkey 20% 15-35% 18% U.K. 30% 0-40% 17.5% Ukraine 25% 15% 20% U.S.A. 15-35% 15-35% - Vietnam 28% 0-40% 10% Zambia 35% 0-35% 17.5% World Tax Chart - Tax Comparison, Updated 11/6/08

MrRodgers -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 3:09:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol "Rewarding failure" is a phrase that's part of a particular brand of capitalistic ideology. It's true that a couple of people on the forum boards are particularly fond of it... they've never failed at anything and so they are angry (a paradoxe you will have to ask them to explain to you). You are on to it kittin only it is part and parcel of the definition of capitalism. Most all of those over the years whom are so skilled and worthy of the multi-million dollar salaries as investment bankers, corporate CEO's along with the recent debacle at Fannie and Freddie are all so worthy...they are rewarded with millions even when they fail. Some have enjoyed (failed) their way to 10's of millions. These men, seldom any women...get rewarded for their losses (failure) and even if some bonuses were due to cooking the books, still walk away with millions in severence called golden parachutes and hefty retirement salaries in addition to stock options. Stock options lately though have been down and directly because of their own incompetence...weren't worth nearly as much as before their 'failure.' We taxpayers are now rewarding the failure of wall street and the bankers with a $trillion or more so they can continue to reward the failure of their financial mangers and CEO's. We taxpayers are also rewarding 'Detroit' some $50 Billion for their failure to invest in new high-mileage technology. It's all socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. And the beat goes on...

Mercnbeth -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 3:15:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Merc,after I posted my last I did regret the bitter characterisation...and I apologize for that. Hell Mike, you gave me the opportunity to say how sweet I really am! - No worries! quote: On the other hand you do keep beating this drum,and lately you have been adding an additional gripe,that of a moratorium on foreclosures.Do you know something I don't,as far as I know though there has been talk of such a moratorium, no such action has been taken as of yet.And BTW PE Obama ,when he proposed such a measure did qualify it to limit it to homeowners of primary residence's who have exhibited good faith efforts to uphold there obligations I appreciate and do have empathy for those having difficulty paying their bills - mortgage or rent for that matter. The drum I beat doesn't tone against them - it is being beaten for all those who HAVE paid their mortgages, rents, and all their other debts who now look like fools for not succumbing to the Sirens' song tempting them to buy more, buy bigger, and buy now. Again, regardless if that entity is an individual, a partnership, or corporate entity we all were faced with the same decisions and choose not to make them. Now it seems that our consequence it paying for those who made the mistakes, either by taxes or reduces access to borrowing. Although many don't want to hear it, what PE Obama does after he takes office and what he said to get there may not have any resemblance to each other. The issue of the moratorium is no different than the issue of troops in Iraq. What is a "good faith" effort; and how is that effort affected by what has subsequently happened to the economy? What good does any moratorium do when given to someone who no longer has a viable job or source of income? Don't know what's happening in your neighborhood, but today the Governator of CA is trying to get State workers to take an unpaid day off every month to help cover the budget. How will those workers work in a mortgage bail out based on a reduced income? Since GM didn't make the 'bail out' list - how will those, soon to be laid off workers, manage to use the moratorium to their benefit. It seems that 'Wall Street' isn't signing on to the coming Obama Administration. It's down more in the last two days than ever before after a national election. As good or bad as you think of them - the industries represented by the 'Big Board' are the current source, directly or indirectly, of most of the US economy. From personal experience, a business does a LOT better when not provided a safety net of federal bail out. Now - it seems they all feel as entitled as a 4th generation welfare recipient. NOT a good potential source for long term viability. It's also not PE Obama's fault beyond his votes as Senator. Collectively I hold the entire Congress, and their actions over the past 20 years regardless of the majority party, responsible for the US becoming a nation of personal and corporate entitlement seekers. As stated, PE Obama's intelligence and lack of experience in the one true way of Washington may prove to be his greatest asset and this countries best hope. However all those special interest programs and entitlements must take a back seat for now until everyone starts to learn to take on personal responsibility and failures are allowed to fail. It's going to be a hard lesson

kittinSol -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 4:22:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers You are on to it kittin only it is part and parcel of the definition of capitalism. Most all of those over the years whom are so skilled and worthy of the multi-million dollar salaries as investment bankers, corporate CEO's along with the recent debacle at Fannie and Freddie are all so worthy...they are rewarded with millions even when they fail. Some have enjoyed (failed) their way to 10's of millions. Thanks MrRodgers - I have noticed that each time a left leaning head of state is elected, the only people that whine about it are the ones who have benefited from unreigned capital. According to them, this is how it should be: punish the poor, reward the rich for stealing from the poor. Meritocracy at its best. (I realise this is a simplistic analysis - but then again, considering the amount of long-winded bullshit we have to put up with at times, it's also succint and to the point. The cool rich people I know - and there are a few - do not mind in the least paying more money towards the collective. Just like the working poors have no choice but to contribute to the collective with their sweat and blood and little other reward than a subsalary and a life similar in spirit to that of XIXth Century mine workers. Why some should whine and complain... only they know.)

UncleNasty -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 4:57:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah There was NO ONE watching who's hands were going into the cookie Jar and it was allowed in the attempt to get a lighter rule on Morgages. Steel Actually there were thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of people that were being affected by malfeasance and were complaining to appropriate agencies well in advance of the "mortgage debacle." I posted a week or so ago "Evil deadbeat borrowers..." that included links to sites with complaints made by citizens. The agencies simply blew them off. Have foreclosures reduced since the bailout? No, they are still increasing. Last I checked we are more than doubling last years numbers. Trouble is, there is no intermediate step between a proper complaint lodged with the proper agency where it falls on deaf ears, and armed revolution. I'm a little surprised though that rakes, pitch forks and torches weren't employed in people expressing their feelings in re the bailout. Uncle Nasty

Irishknight -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 4:59:10 PM)
Kitten, we must have different definitions of meritocracy. Rewarding each man or woman according to their individual accomplishments and efforts regardless of color, gender, religion or family status is meritocracy. The thing you mention is business as usual in this country, not meritocracy. Those who refuse to do anything should get nothing. Those who give all they can should get help if its needed. Those who step up to the plate and strike out should go back to the dugout and prepare for their next time at bat.

TheHeretic -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 6:41:30 PM)
Rewarding failure? That would be the multi-generational welfare dependency culture.

OneMoreWaste -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/6/2008 6:53:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Thanks MrRodgers - I have noticed that each time a left leaning head of state is elected, the only people that whine about it are the ones who have benefited from unreigned capital. According to them, this is how it should be: punish the poor, reward the rich for stealing from the poor. Meritocracy at its best. Well, sure... if you have a choice between stealing from the rich to give to the poor, or stealing from the poor to give to the rich, the rich are going to choose option B. Here is a gold star for your command of the obvious [8D]

cpK69 -> RE: Rewarding Failure (11/7/2008 5:14:20 AM)
Thank you, all, for the responses. Merc, glad you stopped in, as I believe it was your posts that I first started seeing the phrase in. quote: Why think outside the box, work to be self sufficient, or expect to incur the consequence for decisions when all around you for all your life failure was encourage through rewards? The short answer to this question; honor. It is the same answer I come up with when I ask; “Why do I keep trying so hard, when I know I’m just spinning my wheels to make someone else rich?” I think, perhaps, those who wish to chalk this up as rewarding failure, are missing a very important aspect of the situation. If I am the kid who receives the trophy I didn’t earn, the gain is empty. Seriously, if my teammates think I suck, their parents despise me, and I can’t breath by the time I get to first base (if I even make it to first base), the experience is not going to be a pleasant one. Chances are, I didn’t even want to play baseball in the first place. If I am the kid who feels my trophy has been diminished because someone who didn’t earn theirs, got one too; I’ve lost sense of value. However, I’m thinking, right about then is when someone should be slapping me up beside the head, and asking me what the fuck is wrong with me. That trophy isn’t what made me “great”, anymore then it did the kid that didn’t earn it. If I was only playing for the trophy, and got one; I should be happy. Otherwise, it was for the experience and honor of knowing I did a good job, which I will take with me on my path. The other kid got a piece of plastic mounted on a rock, that’s it; I should feel bad for the poor SOB. This leads me to what I see as the real issue here. Why does the kid who can’t play baseball think they should? Why is learning differently, considered a bad thing? Why should I aspire to earn $150k a year (just throwing a number in there), when the cannibalism of big business holds no appeal to me? And why should I ask for apple pie, when what I really want is blueberry cheesecake? Because, "The American Dream", how does that saying go? "Mom, baseball, and apple pie"? What you are referring to as “rewarding failure”, looks to me like institutionalization. I said it in another thread, and believe it to be accurate; reward always goes to success. So, who gets the reward? Those who we let convince us that we must strive for that trophy, college education, SUV, and house with the two door garage and white picked fence. Consequence is ours. In order for us to gain any reward from the experience, we must ask ourselves; “Did we learn anything?” Kim

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