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RE: To start Again. - 11/9/2008 5:21:53 PM

oceanwynds

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I just wanted to wish you best with this.

blessings
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RE: To start Again. - 11/9/2008 8:16:46 PM

BeIgnited

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An issue I see with what you're asking is not that those things--being consistent, more mature, making good decisions--is not that they are necessarily unattainable if he wants to be and do those things (though difficult to reach to be sure) is that they are all abstracts. What does being consistent mean? Being mature? What makes a good decision good? I would think that most people don't think their decisions are bad when they make them. I think defining these things more concretely could be helpful for both you and your partner. Rather than say "be more responsible," define what that means in the context of your relationship, e.g. "Being responsible means doing what you have said you will when you said you will" and give examples--picking up the kids on time, returning phone calls, whatever. Ultimately though, you can't make someone change if they don't want to.

Someone else suggested couseling. I'd like to second that.

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RE: To start Again. - 11/9/2008 8:25:39 PM

NuevaVida

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Knowing your history (you knew me as ownedgirlie), I am reeeeeally concerned about the situation. Has he had counseling and/or anger management so he doesn't repeat the past abuse? Do you truly trust he won't distress the baby this time? What has he changed in his life to show a track record of making healthy and mature decisions?

And have you had counseling, such that you can create healthy boundaries for yourself and not allow yourself to be abused long term (or even short term) again/

These are simply questions for you to ask yourself; not necessarily to answer on this board. Your situation was pretty damned awful before, as I recall. I am skeptical that abusers change in just a year's time. I certainly know my ex husband couldn't, even with counseling, church, and medication.

You will do what you will do here, but I urge you, if nothing else, to have an "out" lined up. If not for your sake then for your little ones. I really do wish you the best...but I have to confess, I'm scared for you.

< Message edited by NuevaVida -- 11/9/2008 8:26:39 PM >

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RE: To start Again. - 11/10/2008 5:56:54 AM

DesFIP

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Tell him what you told us. That the only way you would ever allow him to make decisions is to demonstrate intelligence, maturity, forethought, and caring first. And that the ball is in his court to show that he has suddenly matured since you were last together. That when and if you see what you need in a dominant in him, you will let him know. But until then, you will not submit because he hasn't earned it.

But you know he hasn't changed, he didn't get any therapy, enter a father's group, get anger management or whatever else he needs to change. So you need to be the adult here for your kids, since he isn't.

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RE: To start Again. - 11/10/2008 6:15:41 AM

celticlord2112

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First off, I don't think you're doing anything "stupid". If you want to work on a relationship, even if it doesn't work out, the rewards are generally worth the risk (as long as you have the self-discipline to stay out of destructive patterns of behavior).

That being said.....

What I read in your OP is the desire for a structure, for something external to guide and inform the dynamic.

By way of suggestion (and perhaps recommendation) I offer up the guidelines I establish for my slave, which I call the Precepts. I have posted them before, so please forgive the redundancy here:
1.    Trust Sir's judgment.
2.    Be honest with Sir at all times.
3.    Understand that you are Property.
4.    Your primary goal is to please Sir.
5.    Your primary Fear should be Sir's displeasure.
6.    Rewards from Sir are earned, not given.
7.    Pain is a gift from Sir; cherish it always.
8.    Always be aware you are a Sexual Creature.
9.    Constantly strive to better yourself.
10.    Never forget that Sir, while your Lord and Master, is still human.

I would not advise you or anyone to take these "as is" and apply them to your dynamic; they are mine and they are what work in my household--so long as my slave keeps to these precepts she is assured of exhibiting pleasing behavior, without question. They may, however, provide a departure point for the discussion with your ex on the manner of structure that best suits your dynamic.

Best of luck in making it work!

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RE: To start Again. - 11/10/2008 6:45:39 AM

MaamJay

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Have to say that My attempts to rekindle a relationship failed. Third strike he was out! Despite all his TALK about wanting to change AND all his READING books and ATTENDING self-help programs and workshops ... he DIDN'T CHANGE because he simply didn't put in the CONSISTENT EFFORT required for it to work. Do the capitalised words mean something to you? Is your ex saying he has changed, has he done some of the learning? That could be part way to success ... but it can also be simply spinning wheels. People who wish to learn to behave differently have to realise that it will feel alien to them at first, unnatural, and will be difficult to sustain. Only when they accept that newness, embrace it as a positive sign of change happening and consistently apply all they have learned, will they really be able to affect change. In My ex's case, he talked the talk but could never walk the walk for more than a few days. Now his problem wasn't in terms of physical abuse or inappropriate behaviour, his was in emotional manipulation and total selfcentredness. It was no more or less liveable with though for not being physical. Only when I completely broke away did I start to realise the level of stress I had been under. While I went in knowing from the start I couldn't MAKE him change, I could only offer the tools to him to help him do it himself, it was so very frustrating as a teacher to lead the horse to water ... then see him refuse to drink! So sorry I don't have a more positive tale, but over My life I have seen only a few men successfully reprogram themselves. I have seen more women achieve it, I think the gender difference has more to do with the support networks that women have that men often lack.

If he hasn't even started down the track of self help and you still want to try again, then I second beth's suggestions. I would also second the poster who said you both need more specific information about bdsm. A website I have found to be useful resource is
http://www.albanypowerexchange.com/BDSMinfo/bdsm_101.htm Also consider reaching out into a local community and meeting folks. You might both find wiser more experienced bdsmers to use as mentors and advisors. And attending workshops is a hands-on way to learn techniques safely.

Communication is about more than talk, it is also about listening. Actively listening, repeating back to each other what each thinks has been said to be sure you are on the same page. Record your discussions and/or take notes. Quite often a lot of the problem is that people hear what they want to hear, not what has actually been said. There can be a big difference between perception and reception. Also don't neglect written communication. If you are dealing with an issue that you find difficult to talk about, or if you find you both get off-track or heated ... try writing it down and then letting each other read it. It gives the writer chance to work on it and express it in the clearest way they can, and the recipient time to think on it and consider a response instead of going off half-cocked or with whatever leaps into their head. And try to both remember that (a) if you raise your voice you've exposed that you have the weaker case so essentially you've lost and (b) everybody involved in an argument has something to be able to say sorry for.

I might wish you luck but I do feel you are taking on a huge load, and there's no guarantee the ums will be happier because of it. Think carefully on this, putting your sanity on the chopping block isn't necessarily going to help them.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: To start Again. - 11/10/2008 8:44:58 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DisenchantedLife

...if I wanted to go back to being his slave.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DisenchantedLife

If when I say stop. He stops. If I say something is not cool, he doesnt do it....

You don't want to be his slave.
You aren't showcasing the mindset that trusts his judgment.
You've laid out a list of "ifs"...which is essentially a covert attempt to (try to) change him.
You just miss specific aspects of having been in a relationship with him and are trying to find a way to get all the goodies back without having to suffer any of the negatives.

Relationships don't work that way...at least, they don't work long that way.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 11/10/2008 8:45:11 AM >

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RE: To start Again. - 11/10/2008 9:07:40 AM

SteelofUtah

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History Repeats Itself.

I find it difficult for people to change sub concious patters unless they are woring a rigiorous program of honesty.

That being said it is your life and only you will be responsible for the actions YOU take. There will be no one but YOU to blame if he remains the same man he always was.

Steel

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RE: To start Again. - 11/10/2008 12:31:51 PM

beargonewild

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DisenchantedLife

How do I lay the right ground work? I know that it takes two to tango and i obviously did not lay any ground work in the past. I just followed blindly. I never stood up for myself. I never demanded better. I didnt do my job in creating a good relationship. I allowed him to be a piece of shit and I allowed it to get abusive. I will not allow it again.

My initial reaction is if you believe that working things out with you ex is a better option then I think the trust issue should be worked on first and foremost. Another though is this time when you do get to seriously discussing the D/s part, to take what you learned from the first time and use that as a guide to define what you both want out of a potential relationship this time around. Granted there were probably mistakes you both made and I believe that you have a better idea of what not to do and now you have a chance to use that knowledge to do things better that is best suited for yourself and for your ex.

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RE: To start Again. - 11/10/2008 12:38:40 PM

Jeptha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

You don't want to be his slave.
You aren't showcasing the mindset that trusts his judgment.
You've laid out a list of "ifs"...which is essentially a covert attempt to (try to) change him.
You just miss specific aspects of having been in a relationship with him and are trying to find a way to get all the goodies back without having to suffer any of the negatives...

Excellent points.
Also, as BeIgnited mentions above, you have to be specific about what it acceptable or not acceptable, you can't use generalities. Even the term "slave" is fuzzy and romantic in this sense. You have to be clear and in control of what you are willing and unwilling to accept.
Saying you want him to be "mature" or "consistant" are fluffy generalities.
You have to be precise and detailed in laying down your boundaries, and you have to make decisions that won't compromise your ability to react accordingly if it turns out he cannot understand or respect them.

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RE: To start Again. - 11/10/2008 12:58:12 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

That being said.....

What I read in your OP is the desire for a structure, for something external to guide and inform the dynamic.

By way of suggestion (and perhaps recommendation) I offer up the guidelines I establish for my slave, which I call the Precepts. I have posted them before, so please forgive the redundancy here:
1. Trust Sir's judgment.
2. Be honest with Sir at all times.

I'm focusing on these two because they aren't always the best things to do.

How can she trust his judgment when he's proven that his judgment isn't trustworthy?

How can she be honest with him if his reaction to hearing something he doesn't like is to scream at her and demean her?

In this case, he hasn't had any anger management, he's been verbally abusive in the past, he's proven himself to not care about the effect he has on his offspring - so he is not a good choice for a dominant.

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RE: To start Again. - 11/10/2008 2:47:07 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

I'm focusing on these two because they aren't always the best things to do.

How can she trust his judgment when he's proven that his judgment isn't trustworthy?

How can she be honest with him if his reaction to hearing something he doesn't like is to scream at her and demean her?

First, as I stated, these are offered up as a starting point for a discussion. To take these precepts as is would be a definite mistake.

Second, these are exactly the questions that the OP needs to discuss with her ex. What the final structure ought to be is for them to work out between themselves. Hopefully, within that structure, the questions you raise will be fully and carefully addressed.

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RE: To start Again. - 11/10/2008 6:13:26 PM

DisenchantedLife

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Hi all.

I'm feeling pretty disapointed right now and I'm not sure where to go from this spot. It was not a good conversation last night. Most of the usual/old bs. It was a conversation, no argueing, but eh. I felt like circles were being talked around me. I would be asked if I had an experience in an area of life, I would provide experience and then my experience would be dismissed because it did not suit his point. That and somethings have to be spoken about, whether we like it or not - I was told when I mentioned I didnt want bringing up bad blood.............. but when he didnt like what I was saying..... how are we to start fresh if you keep bringing up the past. I know what it was. He wanted me to listen and agree with all of his points and when I didnt or I saw things differently, everything I said was invalid. Or something. I'm not quite sure what it was all about, i can only guess, but I do know i had a hard time standing on my feet through it. I heard some disheartening things said. The past year being summed up that I have a man hating mother.......yes... thats why I broke it off... because my mother hates men.... and last but not least the biggest disheartening thing he said was you know I would never hurt you. Which I must say, did actually boil my blood. (not that i really said a damn thing about it) That line is almost comical and I could probably right a comic strip about it.

.... i wrote this earlier, but did not send it...

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RE: To start Again. - 11/10/2008 6:21:24 PM

DisenchantedLife

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I have a good idea how to start our next converstation. I have been practicing it in my head all day. Which is lame, I know, but oh well. I am going to start with "after our conversation last night, I was left with some serious doubts that this could go any further. Perhaps I just misunderstood what you were saying." And then go on to explain that I am going to explain to him how I feel about what i heard. Which only has to do with me, not with him. So I come off as not attacking, not assuming, not demonizing him, and not something or other. "i felt like you were talking circles around me because...." "i feel like if responsiblity is not taken on both of our parts we will never be able to start fresh. We both made mistakes."

LOL of course I'm nervous because i feel like its a tricky conversation and I dont like those that and I worry about nother unpleasant one. Hopefully it will go well, things will be clarified and then we can tackle the next conversation which would be how not to let history repeat itself.

I appreciate all your replies and I will respond to them as soon as I can.

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RE: To start Again. - 11/10/2008 6:41:05 PM

DisenchantedLife

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Yes Jewel, I do know and i will take your suggestions. We do plan on dating and taking it slow for a long long time. The idea to put him in situations to see if his temperment has changed didnt occur to me. I'll look into that. There is the possiblity that its because its comfortable and that is also something I will look at. I am hoping that he is all those things I want - but if he's not I'm not walking into shit, ya know? That if he isn't there is something that draws that line. Like for example. If there is no bondage then nothing wicked can happen if he hasnt changed. Which is sort of what i mean with all the other stuff. If he is not responsible then.... and so forth.

Hibiscus - I see excatly what you are saying about changing behavior and not self. I believe we all have an inate character and while we can change what we do, we do not change who we are. I am hoping that his foundation is good and its just what he does that needs to be worked on. I have no fear of being alone. I actually have severely enjoyed being single this past year. Nor am I demanding he change. I just hope he has. I've heard his words that he has - i've seen small bits of proof here and there that he has. I am hoping it is not just what I've seen and its not all talk not action.... i'm hoping it really is. Yet at the same time I will not walk blindly.

Whiplash- I agree we are all responsible. It takes two to tango. All advice is good advice even if it isnt positive! I am in counseling and he supposedly went to anger management. Although I was told at domestic violence center that anger management isnt really his problem. The problem we had is that he just coldly does whatever he pleases no matter what it does to anyone else. I will bring up that a condition of us getting back together is that we attend couple's therapy. Even kink friendly. And no worries, I will be on my toes.

barelynangel - no I dont mean it as onesided. I agree I screwed up royally too. I allowed it to happen. As i have said many times, it takes two to tango. I havent made any demands of yet. I am trying to look long term on how this might be possible. I appreciate the advice.

Thank you Thunder.......

Thank you for your best wishes ocean......

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There's an old biblical saying... - 11/10/2008 6:47:01 PM

masterforRT

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There's an old biblical saying that certainly applies here:

"A leopard can't change his spots!"

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RE: To start Again. - 11/10/2008 6:57:17 PM

DisenchantedLife

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BeIgnited - I agree they are abstracts. I know specifically what I mean, but to spell it out here would be too long.

OG - I agree I need an out lined up, just incase. I am very aware. The two of has have both talked about covering our backs.

DesFIP - thank you for summing up that so nicely for me. I think that is an awesome answer and basically what I was looking to say, but not articulating well. I actually have seen small changes. Granted I havent spent much time around him, so I do not know how big the changes are - but the ones I ahve seen are promising - which is why I am considering it. Yes he did get anger management. Although I am not quite sure how that has helped. I do like the suggestion of us both attending counseling together. I think that is spot on and a great idea to keep things in the green.

Thank you for the suggestions Celtic. You are right I am looking for something external to guide our relationship as our first go ended in the dumps miserably. History has shown we havent a clue how to do it right, so in order to succeed we must look else where for guidence until we can learn to do it on our own.

Thank you Maam Jay for the detailed info on communication. Looks like some good techniques to try. Yes you are right, I am worried that it is just spinning wheels. Talk the talk but not walk the walk. I'll check out that website, try and grab some books (if we make it that far and manage to get to the D/s of things). I think a mentor is a great idea and being around others in the scene would be helpful to when it comes to the D/s side of things. At this point - i dont even see us getting there. But we'll see.

Yes Steel - honesty is a super must and i agree - if it all goes down the dumps I am to blame. Its my decision and I am making it.

Bear - other then what beth laid out to work on trust issues. Have you any other ideas on how to work and rebuild trust? Another good though.. defining what we both want out of the relationship. Probably best if we write something like that down.

Thank you all!! These were some definetly good suggestions on how to start things off better. I hope we are able to get to the point were we can put into practice your suggestions and see them work. I appreciate all the advice. I'm also contemplating asking him to come read your responses as well so he can be on the same page as me. Either that or just write everything out for him as good ways to go about making things work out between us.

I definetly appreciate everyones input.

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RE: To start Again. - 11/19/2008 12:10:22 PM

MsFlutter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

If my ex and I particpate in "deviant" sex (lol my brother called it deviant sex) - my ex will become addicted again and I will open up the door for more bad things to happen.

Ah no. I think that most of the time (and I've done it, once) both partners fall back into the old behavioural pattern. It is virtually impossible to "renegotiate" feelings and patterns. Having had the one experience, which ended as the first iteration did, I resolved I'd never go back again. Even though the notion is sometimes very attractive. People change, you see, but they only change in different situations, with different people. One ex wanted to get back together, and I told her the only way I would consider it would be if we moved to SE Asia together, a plan I had at the time. She came back and said to go ahead, and she'd join me there. And I told her that I only thought it would work if we did a new environment, a new experience, absence of all of the old stuff, and did it together. Sure enough, she never came around.

I've seen very few others negotiate this successfully, as well.

Hope that helps. Move forward, not backward.

I'm in full agreement with antipode. The one upside is that you would now be more finely attuned to how familiar the road looks and will bail before the truly awful sinkhole opens up.

The ummms are resilient. They are also little tuning forks - they will amplify anything you emote. If you are miserable, they will be miserable - and more so because they lack the tools with which to process all of this. Sometimes ya just have to get out of a toxic situation so you can remain intact for them AND you. They will adapt to not having two parents in one house - they may not adapt well to living in an unhappy environment.

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RE: To start Again. - 11/19/2008 1:17:44 PM

BlackPhx

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Disenchanted...

You've gotten some good advise, but I am going to take it a bit further.

Step back and examine really if it is love that is drawing the two of you back together, OR, if you are reacting from the position of better the devil you know than the stress you are dealing with. Being a single parent is very hard, and it can be extremely stressful as many of us can attest to. It is easy to figure that you survived the last time and maybe this time it will be different, and you are right it may well be different this time. As ShiftedJewel pointed out, where it was verbal before, it may well become physical this time.

Toss out the BDSM aspects completely and consider the rest of the past relationship with this ex AND the conversation that you just had with him. You have already seen that nothing changed. "He wanted me to listen and agree with all of his points and when I didnt or I saw things differently, everything I said was invalid." If you are not feeling that he is hearing you, accepting your experience and incorporating it or considering your point of view, then you can already see how it is more than likely going to go in the future. Old habits are more likely to rear their heads than not, especially without a great deal of counseling. Toxic relationships rarely get better without BOTH people working on it and I do mean WORK.

When I worked Rape Crisis Spouse Abuse, it was frightening how many women went back to their abusers, mostly because the chances of them getting out safely a second time or that things had changed was 99:1. Too many who went back ended up in the hospital or dead. I am not saying he is abusive, though failing to learn how to do things safely such as the ear bite is borderline at best, but please consider if the things you were even desireing in your original post were not part of the original relationship, then you need to consider seriously if they can be part of a renewed relationship. It is highly unlikely that he is going to change without wanting to, and without counseling, by a BDSM Kink Friendly counselor or a Mentor.

If you are both in striking distance of Orlando I would suggest looking into the Woodshed. It offers both a Submissives only and Masters Only group, where people can learn not only about BDSM but themselves, as well as finding Mentors. It might help.

Last but not least..forget the BDSM until you have learned to respect each other and trust each other as people, parents and friends. You need a strong foundation to build on for 24/7, and your time as parents and people is going to be a lot more than your time spent kneeling and serving him as a slave. Yes.I know you are a slave all the time, but the UMS, Work, day to day living will overshadow all of that and vice versa. You will have ways of affirming that slavery constantly but it is real hard to go to a PTA meeting dressed as Barbara Eden playing Jeanni.

Upshot.. please be careful, thoughtful and cautious. It is not just your life you are affecting but your UMs as well. Better indeed that they have two healthy parents that they travel between than a emotionally, mentally or even physically toxic two parent home. They will learn what he teaches them and if what he shows them is that your opinions, thoughts, feelings or experiences are invalid and worth less than his..they may soon emulate him.

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