RE: Does anyone really understand ?

RE: Does anyone really understand ? (Full Version)

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MrRodgers -> RE: Does anyone really understand ? (11/12/2008 10:15:59 PM)
Kinkroids...our capitalism and the culture it has created began about the 20's and it isn't about cars, or equipment, or health care, or light bulbs...it's all about money. Notice that GM, Ford even GE had long since become finance companies making more money with money then on cars or light bulbs. ...most corporate profits (70%) were 'earned' in financial transactions i.e....making money with money. It was way back during Bush I (1990 census) for the first time in our history we had more people working in govt. (19 million) than in manufacturing. (17 million) ...by far most of the long term pension/health 'legacy' costs for the small 3 in Detroit is funded by the earnings and holdings of their respective pension funds and in the case of GM, was to be entrusted to union managent via their last contract. GM's problem is the high cost of current accumilated average hourly wages of $56,000/yr. PLUS the cost of health care. The total cost to GM of the healthcare part in each car now costs more then the steel. So here is our paradox...taxpayers funding our own jobs. This is definately a decision the marketplace didn't make. We the taxpayers have found approx. a $trillion for wall street, banks and now Detroit as sort of govt. program called capitalist debt insurance BUT... We couldn't find any money or find anyway at all for us taxpayers to insure our own debt, or mortgage or even our health. There is nothing we can do now. The great public sentiment voted NO on the bailout 3 or 4 to 1 (75% to 80% against) and congress passed it anyway. The plutocracy...govt. run of money, by money and for money, has spoken instead. Are we listening ?

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Does anyone really understand ? (11/12/2008 10:24:32 PM)
The problem is simple. Our system is based around the concept of perpetual growth, that growth is required to pay interest. We are not growing at the same rate we once were, population is flatlining for the US, and most modern nations, most of the growth in population is because of importing population growth. And under our current technologies, eventually we will hit an upper limit wall of the global population capacity. What? 20-40 years tops without a radical advance in energy generation. So, that is part one of what is required for real growth, population. Part two, just like spaghetti you need spaghetti sauce to turn those plain noodles into to tasty spaghetti, an impoverished person raising goats does not interact in our economic model, thus that goat herder needs to be converted into a consumer, and a consumer requires resources to make his products and the products he will consume. So, you need a corresponding ready supply of gas for his new car he will want, oil for all of his products, and you need an environment(government), for him to live that is stable enough for him to get from goat herder to Cadillac driving consumer. Now, unless you are living on another planet it is obvious we can't double the rate of oil consumption without impoverishing ourselves. We can't double the rate of deforestation without stripping the world bare, we can't feed twice as many people under this model without doubling the amount of oil that requires. So, the solution if one wanted keep this system going and make available enough resources to raise up more people to the consumer culture we live in, is to find a technology that will drastically reduce the cost of energy. That is the only solution, as if you can find a way of producing energy at near zero cost without resource depletion, you can then use that energy to recycle all the old consumables thus making more resources available overall, and extending the number of people that can enter the consumer world without degrading the lifestyle of other consumers and thus fuel real growth in consumption which ultimately pays for Interest on credit as we use it. It is an energy problem, as recycling is very energy intensive, thus why it makes little sense to recycle most things. If we don't do that then real growth will eventually die, and it will evolve into a mere shifting of wealth and lifestyle as opposed to bringing more people into a more comfortable lifestyle. And most probable the shifting of wealth to fewer and fewer as the interest on the credit required to enter into production would be harder and harder to overcome the more stagnant a system becomes, thus the only ones to afford that would be those that already had the money. And if we select not to go balls to the wall in finding very cheap energy it will also mean a very measurable reduction in all parts of the Interest related economy. You need many less finacial services in a non-growing system, it just works that way. So, that is the problem. It is energy. It always is really. Find ultracheap energy and our financial system can function as is, if we don't it will need changed, and we will need to change, most probably for the worse. edited to add, even more important that motive energy is cheap energy is required for water, as we are creeping closer and closer to a situation in more and more places to where fresh water is limiting growth.

awmslave -> RE: Does anyone really understand ? (11/13/2008 2:30:55 AM)
Everybody in high government position knew years what was going on. I have no doubt Bush, Paulson, Pelosi, Reed, Frank, Dodd, McCain, Clintons and others knew years that the pyramid scheme will collapse. We are talking about trillions of dollars without any backing. How can this information be hidden from people who obviously have an acess and responsibility to know these things? Obviously they benefitted from the situation and turned the blind eye. I new it just looking at huge gains, absurd salaries and bonuses in financial sector while the economy as a whole was stagnant. Every high official in charge of the economy would ask how is it possible? Everybody with elementary common sense would find the answer. There should be an independent prosecutor and these people together with bankers and hedge fund managers should be prosecuted and sent to copper mines to do time and hard labor.

candystripper -> RE: Does anyone really understand ? (11/13/2008 5:37:48 AM)
Well everyone's right. However, the nature of man is such that any fiduciary, whether it is a bank or a pension, is tempted to steal from those who have entrusted heir money to them. Hoffa, The Mob and the Theft of Pension Funds Is is not a 'fault' of the worker, who did everything the company asked of him and who earned his pension just as he did his paycheck. The term 'corporate raider' refers, in part, to a wealthy individual or company which seeks to acquire a controlling share of another company. Many times, the acquired company was broken up, sent into bankruptcy and the pension funds reverted back to the corporate raider. These folks who steal from workers are going straight to hell. To work all your life, and then be impoverished as you age because someone stole your pension funds -- this is truely vile. candystripper [sm=pole.gif]

pahunkboy -> RE: Does anyone really understand ? (11/13/2008 5:48:55 AM)
need, exponential growth can not continue, I agree. population is not the problem, tho it is straining resources. mental capital is the answer. a creative mind can achieve better ways of doing things. Creative thought is discouraged, even suppressed. The horseless carriage was an amazing thing. So was the model T. so was the ice box. zippers, Velcro. sharp minds could save us. the trouble is allowing such to happen. the power that be wont allow it- only of they own it will they allow it.

Termyn8or -> RE: Does anyone really understand ? (11/16/2008 8:51:41 PM)
Enough doom and gloom hunky. The fact of the matter is, as I stated elsewhere, is that Man's ingenuity will come into play soon, it will have to. People will find a way to survive. A loaf of bread might go up to ten bucks, but I have access to a breadmaker. How much is a bag of flour ? The car keeps wrecking EGR valves. My 69 year old Father went to a head shop and we glued a big bong screen to the EGR valve gasket. It passed emissions just fine. Things are not as bad as they can get yet. A beef tenderloin is probably about sixty bucks, and can be cut into ten very nice steaks. Add you a portion of mac-n-cheese and some veggie of some sort and compare that to going to Quiznos. Or McD's for that matter. We WILL get by somehow, but the thing is when we worked in the past we made money. That means we also made someone else money as well. Where did all this money go. Right on this forum I have heard of two people who had their credit cut off or down, and they called and their credit rating is just fine, but the bank says it simply does not have the money to loan. We WILL get by, but it is not going to be easy. Obama has some ideas, socialistic ones but ideas nonetheless. It might work, and even if it does great, but don't expect miracles. Nobody can fix this mess overnight, it just ain't happening. That simple. Hunky you asked about using borrowed money for investments, I said don't. You will not even stay ahead of the interest, nor the inflation, which is actually the devaluation of the dollar. Things may change but for right now, I would not be getting on a ship that is sinking. Now to go dredge it up after it has sunk is a different story, but when they say a bailout, that word is quite precise. They are doing nothing to fix the root cause of the problem, so therefore all they are doing is to keep the status quo "afloat". T

popeye1250 -> RE: Does anyone really understand ? (11/16/2008 10:18:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Yep, for all of us who were industrial countries, we need to get back to grass roots before it is too late, regain what we once were, an industrial might to be reckoned with, quality over quantity. I am a collector of sorts, I collect things of use, but things which excel over other manufacturers, In my collection of useful and dependable things, there is a lot of American made products, in fact the majority is American, from a time where American was the sign of good design and function. Never managed to get a late sixties muscle car though, although I preferred American muscle to any eurobox hairdryer. I believe Sheffield used to make the best knives and cutlery in the world not so long ago. Now you get mostly junk from China for $39.95 for a set of "Chef's knives."

pahunkboy -> RE: Does anyone really understand ? (11/17/2008 6:35:39 AM)
Americans do not have the stomache for hard times. Term you could be right about investments. Typical folks are no longer resourceful. On Obama, his cheerleaders are not hearing the "it wont be easy" "I need your help". He is better then the GOP, the GOP lost its way. They no longer are thrity with the coffee can of change that you and I put in it. AND I do beleive someone has been drinking this coffee, when they did not contibute to the November pool. See Term, metals are on futures contracts. Many futures do not take delievery. Everything changes once people do start taking deleivery. COMEX was busted for mis-directing investors money per metals. You have a very good point on resourcefull. Any one that had hard times will have a leg up and how to be resourcefull. When I did not have hot water in the 80s- I would set a 5 gallon bucket of water in the car. By 4pm the water was warm eought to sponge bath.

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