RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (Full Version)

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SimplyMichael -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 5:55:29 PM)

There is gun violence in Japan and England, two places with long histories of gun control.  In Israel and Switzerland, both places with widespread and in some cases mandatory ownership of machineguns, gun crime is quite low. 

IT ISN'T THE FUCKING GUNS PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is our insane drug laws, our poverty, and our injustice system.  Cure those and the crime goes away.  That was the unintentional point of Michael Moore's movie.  He couldn't understand why Canada had higher gun ownership than the US and lower crime...




Outlaw85 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 6:01:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

There is gun violence in Japan and England, two places with long histories of gun control.  In Israel and Switzerland, both places with widespread and in some cases mandatory ownership of machineguns, gun crime is quite low. 

IT ISN'T THE FUCKING GUNS PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is our insane drug laws, our poverty, and our injustice system.  Cure those and the crime goes away.  That was the unintentional point of Michael Moore's movie.  He couldn't understand why Canada had higher gun ownership than the US and lower crime...


don't forget the education system.     and don't forget canadians don't value their own lives and their property over that of the person who threatens it.  if someone steals their car, they're obliged to let them have it, many americans however are obliged to shoot the prick in the face and piss on his tomb stone.  I'm in support of this, especially if his family is watching. 

Can you show some evidence about Israel?   Perhaps you're referring to areas outside of Jeruselem and the gaza strip and so on and so forth, cause last I recalled, Israel was a pretty violent region.    I support Palestinians btw.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 6:06:44 PM)

I wasn't including rocket attacks and bombings...I meant crime in the crack head sense.




kittinSol -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 6:26:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Outlaw85
The sooner you accept that reality the better you'll be.


My reality is that I chose to come and live in the region of the United States that was as civilised as could be [&:] . There's little crime here. Then again, I lived in areas of London that were supposedly hugely violent... yet there were little deaths attributed to firearms (and nothing ever happened to me). Go figure: if it's not the guns, and it is the people... why, then, do so many people die at the hands of guns that were fired by people?




kittinSol -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 6:30:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
In Israel and Switzerland, both places with widespread and in some cases mandatory ownership of machineguns, gun crime is quite low. 


Incorrect as far as Switzerland goes: in fact, the situation with guns (on loan from the army, and stored in citizens' private homes) has become so dire the rules were changed drastically. Many people die from gun wounds in Switzerland each year.




rulemylife -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 6:32:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

There is gun violence in Japan and England, two places with long histories of gun control.  In Israel and Switzerland, both places with widespread and in some cases mandatory ownership of machineguns, gun crime is quite low. 



The U.S. consistently has the highest rate of death by firearm of any industrialized nation.  In 2000 the rate was 10 deaths per 100,000 population, which was a decrease from over 14 per 100,000 in 1998. 

In 2000 Japan had a rate of .07 deaths per 100,000, an increase from .05 in '98.

Those were the most recent figures I could find but I doubt it has changed much.





HunterS -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 6:38:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joenextdoor

Maybe I am misunderstanding your post.  I am simply saying that pie in the sky thoughts like "armed robbers shouldn't be allowed to have guns" really will never get one gun away from a criminal.  Laws are written in a much more complicated fashion.  I want to know what law could possibly be written that would take a gun out of the hands of a criminal, without impacting my right to own them?   



No you are not misunderstanding my post.  You simply are not reading them.
You want to argue with me about something I have not said.
If that makes you happy then you are easily pleased.
 
H.




HunterS -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 6:41:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joenextdoor

The reason gun ownership is a "sanctification" in America is easy.  We came here to this country and had to fight for our lives against the natives.  We pioneered westward and a gun was the difference between life and death, both in protection, and in the search for food.  Lastly, its the armed citizen that rose up and fought the King for our freedom.  The founding fathers saw fit to include that cherished right in the Bill of Rights to the Constitution.  People in other countries who have not shared the American experience can probably never understand, just as we could never fully understand them. 


Your post indicates a complete lack of knowledge of the history of my country.  Perhaps if you were to take your post and google what you have posted it might help you keep from posting such idiotic and childish nonsense.

H. 




HunterS -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 6:44:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joenextdoor

I have always said the natives were wronged in the way they were treated.  However, my post was about the American experience, and in that light, not someone's twisting of my post, I say again, the colonists needed guns to protect themselves.



I suppose you are right...when you lie,cheat,steal and murder  people whose land you invade it usually pisses them off enough that you would need a gun to protect yourself.
 
H.




HunterS -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 6:53:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Outlaw85

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

ORIGINAL: Outlaw85

You know you have a very good point in that too.  I have considered this myself.  If half the population were to suddenly, stop paying taxes, imagine how quickly the government would be brought to it's knees.


but in a worst case scenario then the government would try to intimidate the population through use of arms ala saddam husein or the blockading of boston harbor and the housing of soldiers in people's homes ala King George.

of course, those situations are likely as you said, not plausable in this day and age, and also like you said, the tradition of it is a key factor,  it's a tradition that we are armed to make sure that it never happens again.  

I will also argue that the southern states did have some legitimate complaints and justifications for seceeding from the united states in 1861.




Your post  indicates a dramatic lack of knowledge of the history of the U.S.
 
H.


easy to say, why don't you back it up?   I never made the statement that i've majored in US history,
No you have not.  What you have done is post half truths and whole lies that you have heard someplace and were too lazy to actually check their validity.


but I wouldn't say I have a dramatic lack.
I would.  I did and I will repeat it.  You simply have no clue about the history of my country.



And I'd be obliged for you to actually make points and correct me other than egotistically say "I have a lack of knowledge of us history"
I charge for teaching school.  But tell you what.  How about you take each of the asinine statements in your post and go to google and do your own research.  That way your post will contain facts and we can discuss reality and not the made for TV drivel that seems to fill your posts. 





Outlaw85 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 6:54:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Outlaw85
The sooner you accept that reality the better you'll be.


My reality is that I chose to come and live in the region of the United States that was as civilised as could be [&:] . There's little crime here. Then again, I lived in areas of London that were supposedly hugely violent... yet there were little deaths attributed to firearms (and nothing ever happened to me). Go figure: if it's not the guns, and it is the people... why, then, do so many people die at the hands of guns that were fired by people?


that's what I wound up doing as far as living in a safe place.  But I maintain my defenses out of memory.  and of course london doesn't have high gun deaths, tehy don't have many guns, in the US though that's not possible, you could make them illegal, try to take them away, it wouldn't work.  As one person put it so well on here, guns are to americans as turbans to arabs (well it was something that actually started with a s, but I don't feel lik looking it up, the point is there though)

the thing with america is though, due to our nature, if we didn't have guns, which will never happen, but if we didn't we'd use other weapons.  Just a naturally violent people.




Outlaw85 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 6:56:38 PM)

still waiting for you to reply to me about the whole us history lesson amigo.  If I was incorrect in something I said, which you said, I'd like it pointed out and corrected.  course that might lead to another debate but that's healthy too =)

EDIT..  bah!  you must have posted as I was writing that <_<




Joenextdoor -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 6:59:15 PM)

You know, I said I might have misunderstood you, which is an admission that I might be wrong, which is something that alot of guys can't bring themselves to do.  I then see this smart assed reply.  You know so God damn much, but all you do is write this crap and cannot wrap your little mind around the one thing I asked, which is please tell me one law that will keep a gun out of a criminals hands?  You obviously cannot do that, so you resort to this shit.  If I don't know anything about history, why don't you "enlighten" me instead of making smart assed comments about childishness. I guess because our forefathers did bad things to the natives, you think being a smart ass is going to help?  This thread was started and some have made honest posts on both sides of the issue, and others, like you, are here to show just how ignorant  you really can be.




HunterS -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 6:59:45 PM)

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

There is gun violence in Japan and England, two places with long histories of gun control.  In Israel and Switzerland, both places with widespread and in some cases mandatory ownership of machineguns, gun crime is quite low. 



The U.S. consistently has the highest rate of death by firearm of any industrialized nation.  In 2000 the rate was 10 deaths per 100,000 population, which was a decrease from over 14 per 100,000 in 1998. 

In 2000 Japan had a rate of .07 deaths per 100,000, an increase from .05 in '98.

Those were the most recent figures I could find but I doubt it has changed much.




Actually it has.  The U.S. is down to about 6.5 per 100,000.
If you had actually read Michael's post he pointed out that Japan and England have a virtual ban on gun ownership and they still have gun crime.  You want to somehow compare their gun murder rate with the U.S. Why???that was not the point.  The point was and is that even with a ban on guns there is still gun crime...please read what is being said before you disagree with it.




Aynne88 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 7:07:37 PM)

I love you two dearly ( mike and kittin ) but there is no way in hell that having a loaded handgun by my bed is in anyway not for me the best thing to do. I know how to use it, there are *no children* in my home and I think as a woman it is the ultimate equalizer. Safety and knowledge are assumed of course, but I will never be without a gun. I pray I never need to use it...but damned if I am in a postion where I wish I had it and I don't.        


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

[sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]




HunterS -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 7:08:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joenextdoor

You know, I said I might have misunderstood you, which is an admission that I might be wrong, which is something that alot of guys can't bring themselves to do. 
Saying you "might be wrong" is not the same as saying you are wrong,which you are.


I then see this smart assed reply.  You know so God damn much, but all you do is write this crap and cannot wrap your little mind around the one thing I asked, which is please tell me one law that will keep a gun out of a criminals hands?  You obviously cannot do that,
If you would actually read my posts you would have seen that I said that there is no way to do that.  Instead of reading my post you want to argue about something I have not said...whycome???


so you resort to this shit.  If I don't know anything about history, why don't you "enlighten" me instead of making smart assed comments about childishness. I guess because our forefathers did bad things to the natives, you think being a smart ass is going to help?  This thread was started and some have made honest posts on both sides of the issue, and others, like you, are here to show just how ignorant  you really can be.
As long as you keep posting  factually incorrect statements I will continue to point them out.







Outlaw85 -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 7:09:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

ORIGINAL: Outlaw85

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

ORIGINAL: Outlaw85

You know you have a very good point in that too.  I have considered this myself.  If half the population were to suddenly, stop paying taxes, imagine how quickly the government would be brought to it's knees.


but in a worst case scenario then the government would try to intimidate the population through use of arms ala saddam husein or the blockading of boston harbor and the housing of soldiers in people's homes ala King George.

of course, those situations are likely as you said, not plausable in this day and age, and also like you said, the tradition of it is a key factor,  it's a tradition that we are armed to make sure that it never happens again.  

I will also argue that the southern states did have some legitimate complaints and justifications for seceeding from the united states in 1861.




Your post  indicates a dramatic lack of knowledge of the history of the U.S.
 
H.


easy to say, why don't you back it up?   I never made the statement that i've majored in US history,
No you have not.  What you have done is post half truths and whole lies that you have heard someplace and were too lazy to actually check their validity.


but I wouldn't say I have a dramatic lack.
I would.  I did and I will repeat it.  You simply have no clue about the history of my country.



And I'd be obliged for you to actually make points and correct me other than egotistically say "I have a lack of knowledge of us history"
I charge for teaching school.  But tell you what.  How about you take each of the asinine statements in your post and go to google and do your own research.  That way your post will contain facts and we can discuss reality and not the made for TV drivel that seems to fill your posts. 




okay, you just proved you're a dick and nothing more.   I didn't use half truths nor whole lies.  And this is my country, and my family's been here since the 1600s.

so lets go back to what i said.  starting with this

I will also argue that the southern states did have some legitimate complaints and justifications for seceeding from the united states in 1861.   

that's a fact.  and my family fought for the south, in fact I have their military service records.

but in a worst case scenario then the government would try to intimidate the population through use of arms ala saddam husein or the blockading of boston harbor and the housing of soldiers in people's homes ala King George.

blockading of boston harbor and the housing of soldiers in people's homes were punitive acts on massachusets colony due to the boston tea party.  while that wasn't the refusal to pay a tax, it was a demonstration on the matter, and certian people were willing to pay for the tea.     therefore that's fact

last time half the population stopped paying taxes, well the closest thing to it, was when the Southern states seceeded so that they wouldn't have to pay federal taxes on importing and exporting which were levied in such a way, seeing as they were the voting minority, that it was very economically unfavourable to them, in an attempt to force them to buy goods from the more inefficient and thus more expensive nothern states.   it sparked the civil war.  that's a fact. 

so not only are you a dick, you're wrong. 




Joenextdoor -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 7:18:02 PM)

You have only said I am factually incorrect, but as of yet not offered anything in the way of "correct" facts.  You keep saying I want to argue about something you have not said, but I asked a simple question.  If you can't answer it, then fine, maybe someone else would like a try.  You say things I post are idiotic or childish, but offer nothing to refute.  I come to this thread with the proper intentions, and not to just throw rocks at the folks here, then I get that. 




rulemylife -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 7:18:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

There is gun violence in Japan and England, two places with long histories of gun control.  In Israel and Switzerland, both places with widespread and in some cases mandatory ownership of machineguns, gun crime is quite low. 



The U.S. consistently has the highest rate of death by firearm of any industrialized nation.  In 2000 the rate was 10 deaths per 100,000 population, which was a decrease from over 14 per 100,000 in 1998. 

In 2000 Japan had a rate of .07 deaths per 100,000, an increase from .05 in '98.

Those were the most recent figures I could find but I doubt it has changed much.




Actually it has.  The U.S. is down to about 6.5 per 100,000.
If you had actually read Michael's post he pointed out that Japan and England have a virtual ban on gun ownership and they still have gun crime.  You want to somehow compare their gun murder rate with the U.S. Why???that was not the point.  The point was and is that even with a ban on guns there is still gun crime...please read what is being said before you disagree with it.


Was it too much caffeine today or are you normally this testy? 

Either way, I think you're better off staying away from the guns tonight.

Perhaps you should read and try and understand what I was trying to say before you fly off the handle.

There is not a complete ban on guns in either country although they are severely restricted.  And yes they still have gun crime, but a also at a severely limited rate as opposed to the U.S., Switzerland, or even Israel.




HunterS -> RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory (11/13/2008 7:39:18 PM)

quote:

okay, you just proved you're a dick and nothing more
quote:

so not only are you a dick, you're wrong. 



Name calling is against the TOS.
Your family being here since the 1600's is germain for what reason?
Having a family member fight for the Confederacy adds relevance to your point in what manner?
The things you posted are true on the whole but not the whole truth.  If you choose to take part of a truth and quote it out of context of the whole truth you must be prepared for someone who is aware of the whole truth to point it out to you.
If you are happy with your rationalizations and jingoistic flag waving please continue...but be aware that the foolishness of that behavior will be pointed out to you over and over.  Educate yourself about the things you rant about.  Take each of the things you have posted and just take a moment to google them and dig a bit deeper then perhaps your post will not embarrass you.
 
H.




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