RE: Phobias and hard limits

RE: Phobias and hard limits (Full Version)

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LydiaSciKitten -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 8:48:09 AM)
I have intense vertigo. So intense that I can't even ride a bike. If my feet aren't on the floor I feel endangered. And yet I love putting myself in situations where the phobia kicks in. I WANT Master to take advantage of it. Yes, it can be dangerous and lead to extreme, unprovoked reactions. But edge-play is a choice. It is good as long as it is consensual by two self-aware parties. So yes, I have a phobia, and yes, I want to play with it.

MarcEsadrian -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 8:49:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild Most times, many topics regarding hard limits haven't included a person's phobias. I was wondering if a person who identifies as submissive, if you would ask your dom to help you get over a phobia or if the phobia is a "do not enter" zone? Also, do you consider your phobias being part of your list of hard limits? Subsequently for a person who identifies as dominant, do you regard your sub's phobias as something that you are willing to test and help them get over or is that an area which you feel should be left well enough alone? My advice for all is not to consider "phobia" and "hard limit" as synonymous. A "limit" is something measured in proportion to tolerance, a phobia is an outlier matter far exceeding the entire chart. Better to respect the line between them.

antipode -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 9:21:07 AM)
quote: irrational fear so the fear is less overwhelming I don't know, to be honest. I find it even unhelpful to classify the fear in a phobia as "irrational". There may not even be fear involved - anxiety, compulsive behaviour, all fall into the phobia category. There are two issues here - for one thing, a phobia is extremely real to the sufferer. It is therefore disingenious to deal with it as "irrational". If that is how you think about a phobia your sub may have, you're actually putting that sub down where (s)he does not belong. There isn't anything irrational about it at all, it is perfectly logical to the sufferer, and, most importantly, it simply exists. The only classification appropriate for a true phobia is that it is a mental illness. It is accepted in the medical profession that some phobias are related to biological brain function, and that makes those phobias (which you nor I are qualified to diagnose) conditions that only a medical or psychological professional should deal with. So, in my opinion, unless the phobia is very clear cut, and the person is able to discuss it, and rationalize it, dealing with a phobia means staying away from it. I have helped a sub with a needle phobia, in the past, but I think that is an exception, rather than a rule - I had her inject me (I happen to take injectable medication), so she could try to stand the sight of a needle without the connotation that it was going into her. For this, however, there was a good reason - promiscuous as she was, she could never have blood drawn for an HIV test. So I discussed this with my primary care provider, in her presence, and there was a clear motivation to tackle the problem. Outside of that, try not to touch, is my advice. When the person is ready, they'll do that themselves, and only then can there be a result.

camille65 -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 9:31:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild Most times, many topics regarding hard limits haven't included a person's phobias. I was wondering if a person who identifies as submissive, if you would ask your dom to help you get over a phobia or if the phobia is a "do not enter" zone? Also, do you consider your phobias being part of your list of hard limits? Subsequently for a person who identifies as dominant, do you regard your sub's phobias as something that you are willing to test and help them get over or is that an area which you feel should be left well enough alone? Its stupid but I have a really awful terror of doctors. I'd gladly go to any dentist, optometrist or whatever but no no no doctor that requires touching below the neck. Its a huge problem and it took my owner a long time to coax me into getting treatment for my auto-immune crap. Even when having a doctor I was so unable to communicate that my gallbladder ruptured inside of me despite monthly office visits. I've just moved and again have no doctor, its starting all over again with the search and with him coaxing me into going. Some people will let teeth fall out due to their dental fear, thats how I feel about medical doctors. Its a horrible overpowering and stupid fear. I know why but knowing why doesn't seem to help. If I didn't need medication I'd never ever go again. I've been to an ob/gyn only once in the past 15 years and my general doctor was astute enough to let me stay fully clothed (or I would have bolted out the door). Just typing about this makes me feel sick to my stomach. So yeah I use him to help me (not get past it, thats not possible) try and work around the problem. Its embarrassing and stupid, I feel like an idiot having such fear over something so basically normal. Oddly, medical play is something I like and I'm very okay with my owner going over my body. Heh I would adore adore adore a medical table with stirrups even but a real doctor? Hell no I won't go! (If anyone knows of a good, gentle and listening type doc in the Austin area please let me know? I have 6 weeks til I run out of medication and can't afford to fly back to Detroit.)

WhiplashSmile2 -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 10:41:01 AM)
Phobias or fears are a bit of a tricky area to deal with. To be handled with care in my opinion. Some phobias/fears people have are the result of post traumatic stress. Like anything else it's best to educate yourself a little on specific issues your partner has before rushing into matters. Best to have some good conversations with your partner regarding their fears/phobias as well. At best, a Dominant partner may be able to help a submissive partner to become less fearful or help them work past their issues. I stress MAY BE ABLE. It all depends upon the individuals involved, the issues, and what is actually required for the submissive partner to work past these fears. Being a Dom does not equate to being a Therapist or trained professional. Again, I stress for anybody to educate themselves upon thier partners issues or needs. Even submissives should educate themselves about their Dominant partners issues, fears or needs as well. In some cases it's the submissive that can help their Dominant partner work past fears and phobias as well. It can be a bit of a two way street in this department. I think too many people have this notion that DOMS are all knowing, all powerful creatures capable of doing anything and everything. The truth be known, there are even limitations to What a DOM can do for their submissive partner. Being a DOM does not automatically make somebody a good therapist. Sure, a Dominant partner should be supportive, be in touch with their submissive partner, and yes help them work past issues. Then again, this is a dynamic of any healthy supportive relationship. Back to the concept of even submissives being supportive and helping their Dominant partner work past fears/phobias. Then again, there are many DOMs that feel they don't need fixing or need to work past any of their own issues. There are also submissives that feel/think a bit this way as well. Some DOMS have actually caused more harm then good in helping their submissive partner work past fears. Back things such as Post Traumatic Stress Disorders. Some things need to be handled with care. I would think anybody who truely cares for their partner should handle things with a certain level of care involved. Nothing wrong with encouraging your partner to go see a therapist, perhaps purchase some self-help books, and explore all the options for helping them work past their phobias or fears. The more two people can educate themselves on a specific issue, so much the better. Communication and talking about these things is a good starting point, before doing anything at all. Mindlessly tossing somebody into the water who has a fear of water, does very little good. Yet, some DOMS think this is the way to deal with it. (Sad but True). Sure it may or may not work. One thing is for certain you are literally either going have your partner sinking or swimming. Many times people will sink and it makes the experience more traumatic and violates trust. Might even result in the end of the relationship altogether. Then again, some DOMS actually believe and think they know what the fuck they are doing, because their Daddy took them out in a boat and tossed their ass into the water when they were a kid. The dangers of this "Sink or Swim" attitude is that some people actually do sink instead of swim. There are much better and less traumatic ways of teaching somebody to swim without the risk of them sinking. Some Asshole Doms don't factor into the level of risk involved.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 11:09:42 AM)
I have my own phobias. I battle them on my own terms, when I feel up to it. Some of them I've had to become desensitized to because I had no choice (like having a spider crawl up my arm while I was under a car, in a field, trying to get vitals on a child who had been in the car when it rolled over, and who, at the time, couldn't be removed from the vehicle... I could either freak, or be the paramedic I was trained to be). I know that some of my servants over the years have/have had phobias. Whether we deal with them depends on whether the situation is one that would come up in the course of our lives and cripple the family, or whether it is something we can work around -and- whether or not they want it to be something dealt with in the course of our relationship. If it's stated as a "no go" area, we don't go there. If they can't trust me to call something off bounds and know I'll abide by it, then they probably can't trust me on anything, right? This goes for our bond-servants, as well as our regular servants... phobias are sketchy territory -- I wouldn't want to poke around there unless everyone was on board with it, and I wouldn't want someone poking around in mine unless I was ready to do something about them. That, to me, is just plain old common sense.

StrtbkNamdDesire -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 11:26:12 AM)
My phobia is medical needles and blood/veins... I think it induces such a profound emotional response that I simply wouldn't be able to trust someone who WAS into needle-play as a kink. There is no way in the world I would let a Dom try to help me overcome my fears... like Cali states, only those with clinical training should help people overcome real phobias, and as far as I'm concerned, any Dom possessing a degree/state cert. in psychology with a side penchant for bloodletting... well.... :/ (Even if this wasn't connected to a particular kink, I simply wouldn't be comfortable having an untrained person walk me through such fears.)

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 11:27:04 AM)
I've heard of people seeing professionally trained therapists for years, to help them with their phobia(s), without making any real progress. I'm not sure its such a good idea for a layperson to fiddle around with someone's emotional well being. I don't have any real phobias, though I do get anxiety attacks when I'm in crowds. Anytime I feel trapped, I get panicky. Having someone there who knows me well enough to know when I'm needing to bolt, helps keep me from making a total idiot of myself. Oddly enough, I don't ever feel trapped when in bondage, and find it comforting and freeing instead. Maybe I just need to put on a nice formal straight jacket when I go out into crowds....that should go over nicely.

opensoul -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 12:21:52 PM)
As so many have said phobias are not for the faint of heart, this being said, you also need to find a professional who is understanding and will take your treatment slowly. I have a great fear of snakes and heights! I went to a counselor about my height issues and he stated he wanted to hypnotise me . I was okay with the idea till he said and I quote " You maybe afraid of sex" !! I said I have never met a man with a D--- that I was afraid to fall off and I left. So research the person you are going to and remember you make the chooses about your treatment.

BKSir -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 2:21:12 PM)
I think that many times 'phobias' are mislabeled fears and uncertainties. When dealing with them, one should first figure out what it is exactly. My Dear One and one of my partners both had a 'fear' or 'dislike' of needles. They erroneously referred to it as a phobia. This could be an issue, as, I practice acupuncture. So, one of the first things I did when confronting this, was to pull out a couple needles to gauge their reactions. In this instance, nothing severe at all. A bit of squeemishness, but that was quickly overcome when they saw me insert the wires (they're more wires than actual needles), into myself. I now am able to treat them with acupuncture as well. There was still a bit of uneasiness for a little while, but that's understandable. On the other side though, if they say that they are afraid of, and refer to it as a phobia, and I confront them with it mildly, and they do have a very strong reaction, I leave it at that, and do not push it, and do my best to avoid them having to come in contact with such things. It's not my place to force them into something, especially if they say no. I'm not a professional therapist or psychiatrist, but I am the one that is supposed to care for them. Sometimes a bit of discomfort is needed in overcoming things. But when it comes down to the point of terror, I can not and will not allow that to happen. I have a phobia of small dogs, so I know what it feels like, and would never wish that on someone I care about. The gauging of the reaction also plays well, I believe, into matters where one can play on a subs fears. At the same time, there's a big difference in playing on fears in a safe manner, and terrorizing someone. When playing on fears, you have to keep an eye out for the line, and not cross it. Much like a roller coaster. Scary, but in a fun way. With true phobias though, you know where the line is automatically, and, to me, it is not to be crossed. No means no. The exchange of power is based primarily on mutual trust. If a sub can not trust you to not terrorize them, then how can he or she trust that you ever have their interests in mind?

leakylee -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 2:35:39 PM)
i only have one true phobia. there a few things that tease the edge. those things i am more than willing to screw with. i do them slowly and withhold them when getting to know someone. they are the last of the areas that i will explore with a Top. the psychological edge play just simply turns me on. it feeds the a portion of my massocistic nature in a safe and healthy way. to be honest exploring some of the edges have helped me to conquer portions of my phobia. i dont suggest or endorse the practice to replace therapy. but if you know yourself, and trust the situation. why not take the opprotunity to explore it?? lee

StrtbkNamdDesire -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 3:09:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BKSir I think that many times 'phobias' are mislabeled fears and uncertainties. When dealing with them, one should first figure out what it is exactly. My Dear One and one of my partners both had a 'fear' or 'dislike' of needles. They erroneously referred to it as a phobia. This could be an issue, as, I practice acupuncture. So, one of the first things I did when confronting this, was to pull out a couple needles to gauge their reactions. I think (especially in the case of needles) one needs to contextualize the situation. Your partners/sub may have (like me) a fear of medical needles, but are alright with needles outside of a hospital/doctor's office. I cried for 30 minutes the last time I was supposed to have my finger pricked... but I did homework quietly during my entire tattoo.

BKSir -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 3:14:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrtbkNamdDesire quote: ORIGINAL: BKSir I think that many times 'phobias' are mislabeled fears and uncertainties. When dealing with them, one should first figure out what it is exactly. My Dear One and one of my partners both had a 'fear' or 'dislike' of needles. They erroneously referred to it as a phobia. This could be an issue, as, I practice acupuncture. So, one of the first things I did when confronting this, was to pull out a couple needles to gauge their reactions. I think (especially in the case of needles) one needs to contextualize the situation. Your partners/sub may have (like me) a fear of medical needles, but are alright with needles outside of a hospital/doctor's office. I cried for 30 minutes the last time I was supposed to have my finger pricked... but I did homework quietly during my entire tattoo. LOL, too true. I am fine with acupuncture, obviously, and as a chef constantly deal with big sharp knives, and have more cuts than I care to even think about. But, when getting a tiny little shot to test for Teberculosis (or how ever it's spelled), I was simpering like a little sissy. Go figure.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 4:14:58 PM)
I don't have a fear of needles. I have a fear of the sadist at the other end of them....

BKSir -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 4:16:34 PM)
LOL, yeah, like the grouchy nurses? ;)

beargonewild -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 4:20:26 PM)
~FR~ "inappropriately to mild or irrational fears with no serious substance" To clear up any confusion, the above bolded statement is what I based my OP on.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 4:25:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BKSir LOL, yeah, like the grouchy nurses? ;) Nah grouchy nurses I get, it is the smiling, pleasant ones that scare me.....You just know they love their job....

cjan -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 4:57:25 PM)
Treatment for overcoming phobias have a high success rate. They usually combine desensitization treatment and behavioral therapy of the cognitive-emotive kind. Albert Ellis pioneered cognitive-emotive therapy and wrote prolifically about it. It is one of the best types of self-help approaches to many behavioral problems. Therefore, I think that a well intentioned, intelligent friend, regardless of a D/s relationship, may be able to help. A healthy D/s dynamic may be particularly helpful because of the trust that has already been established. Here are a couple of links that may be of some help in pointing someone in the right direction to research phobias and their treatment. http://hcpc.uth.tmc.edu/phobias.htm http://psychcentral.com/lib/2005/psychotherapy-for-anxiety-disorders/

candystripper -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 5:08:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild Most times, many topics regarding hard limits haven't included a person's phobias. I was wondering if a person who identifies as submissive, if you would ask your dom to help you get over a phobia or if the phobia is a "do not enter" zone? Also, do you consider your phobias being part of your list of hard limits? Subsequently for a person who identifies as dominant, do you regard your sub's phobias as something that you are willing to test and help them get over or is that an area which you feel should be left well enough alone? It depends, Bear. I have some phobias too deeply embedded in my pysche to consider trying to change them. I am deeply afraid of big, aggressive dogs off the leash. When I was younger, I was dog-bitten...The ER MD who stitched me up found skin cancer on my arm which had mestastized. I needed a graft to cover the excised area, and was sent to burn ward to recover. I will remember the sreaming of burn victims till the day I die. So, if a man is very, very attached to his pet Rottweiller, chances are we'll never be anything more than friends. Other silly little superstistions I'd be happy to be freed from...but I suspect a benefit of being collared in a power dymanic relationship is a general easing off of free-floating anxiety anyway. candystripper [sm=pole.gif]

oceanwynds -> RE: Phobias and hard limits (11/12/2008 5:39:44 PM)
I cannot stand needles. I do not want anything to do with them. Not my kink. Always wanted a tattoo but never did because of needles. Good thing about my fear of needles, I never became a junkie. Sir understands that, and it is a hard limit, luckily one of his too.

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