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Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/19/2005 4:23:18 PM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		There are conversations online and off that I've heard for years, discussing the whole concept of mutual consent, and the requirement that everyone in a given relationship be happy/be having fun, along with the concomitant idea that even if they agreed to something, if they find that they aren't enjoying it, they can just set it aside and quit.

I'd like to hear what other people think about this, as compared with
the whole idea that we create our own happiness, nobody -makes- us happy, and that what we should be seeking in a D/s relationship (or any relationship) might be something -other- than happiness... like satisfaction or fulfillment of self or growth... in order to be able to get the most out of activities required by one's Owner/Teacher/Master that are not enjoyable, and are not fun, and are not liked, and are not pleasant. (At a later date, I'll approach this from the POV of the dominant who doesn't want to work to -keep- a servant in service.)

Frankly, I worry about servants who come to us for training, and tell us that all
they are looking for is a place to be happy and to find joy. Much of what our training encompasses is dull, repetitive, nit-picky, highly structured and highly detailed. We require tedious exercises that often leave a servant aching. We catch small errors that annoy us and stress the reality of the points we've made about requiring perfection -- not "mediocre" or "good enough", but perfection. Not many people find themselves -happy- about going through such intense and demanding training, no matter whether it is for D/s or for some other purpose (like my own monastic training in my spiritual disciplines). The idea is that the process and the relationships created by/through that process will evoke something that will make all the challenges worthwhile. Often, especially in our situation, this "something" isn't happiness, or love, or fun -- but it is a profound sense of having thrived in a setting that pushed one's abilities to their breaking point and beyond.

I think we've set up this expectation in our culture that everything has to be fun and happy to be good. Many people are not willing to struggle or suffer to achieve, and yet they still want the depth and status that comes from having done the extraordinary, and had that shape -them- into something extraordinary.

Thoughts?

Lady Zephyr


< Message edited by LadiesBladewing -- 12/19/2005 4:25:56 PM >

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/19/2005 4:26:40 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		i am happy; and can be happier without a Dom or Master. What i cannot do for myself is express my submission...and this desire is strong. So, yes, i need a partner to be completely fulfilled and yes, i expect to feel joyful with Him.

candystripper

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/19/2005 4:36:11 PM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		Actually, I don't believe that this is quite accurate. Before I ever knew about this lifestyle, I had the opportunity to learn about what we called, at that time, "yielding to the universe" or "submitting to the will of Life". I learned to express it in ways that ranged from serving food at soup kitchens, to working on a rape-crisis hotline, to giving up all of my modern conveniences to work for a year in the underserviced villages of the Alaskan interior as a midwife.

If you wish to submit, it doesn't take a dom or master -- just an individual worthy of being learned from. Maybe you might try entering a karate dojo, or a yoga ashram (not one of the yoga courses held at, say, 24 hour fitness -- but with a true Yoga master, who teaches not only the poses, but the discipline of the art.) Perhaps you might choose to study with a painter, or spend some time being mentored by an outstanding author whom you admire to work on your writing skills. Perhaps you would like to work with a master carpenter, learning the feel and substance of wood...

Submission is not new to D/s or BDSM. It is an act of yielding oneself to another, who is worthy of being a guide. To say that one "can't" express one's submission without a BDSM Dom is denying the wide variety of options that life gives us to -always- express who and what we are.

Lady Zephyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

What i cannot do for myself is express my submission...and this desire is strong.

candystripper


< Message edited by LadiesBladewing -- 12/19/2005 4:39:17 PM >

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/19/2005 4:44:10 PM   
sunshine333


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		one thought i have on this (and i may have more later) is that we don't see a lot of slavery success stories. the more common succusses we see are people graduating from college, martial artists achieving black belts, performers gaining wealth and recognition, athletes winning olympic medals ... etc. people will be more likely to embark on tedious, rough, highly structured and disciplined trainings if they are relatively certain the payoff will be worth their effort.

i think it's difficult for people to see slave training as a means to make them a better person ... and intense, rigorous slave training a means to make them an extraordinary person. it we truely believed that ... and had the statistics to back it up ... we might be more willing to accept the unpleasantries of slavery as a means to an end.

but that isn't the case. so my guess is that (for the most part) we are in it for the temporary enjoyment it brings, on whatever level that might take. i'm sure there are a lot of people who look at the big picture and make long term goals and are open to seeing it through even during hard times. but, generally speaking, i think people are more interested in instant gratification.

humbly,
sunshine

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/19/2005 4:46:21 PM   
MTslave


Posts: 153
Joined: 12/15/2005
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I know that I for one, don't have to have a Dominant to show my submission. Heck I've been submissive for as long as I can remember. Even as a child I would submit quicker then my siblings, I would submit easier to my parents wishes, I would submit in groups that I was involved in... It's just a part of who I am.

Now mind you, I very much enjoy having my Master and the incredibly unique and bonding relationship we have, but I don't have to have it to submit. I can fill that side of my by merely signing up for the next PTA fund raiser... ~ewwww~

Now sexually speaking may be another matter. I can submit to my non lisfesyle husband and it's a fun time in bed, but when I submit to my Master it's done in a completely different mind frame. One that I'm not sure can be completely or accurately simulated with someone else. But is an interesting thing to think on.

Thank you so much for this thread that has made me think

Respectfully
Master T's slave

_____________________________

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/19/2005 6:31:42 PM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you for starting such an introspective thread.

i have found out several things since starting this lifestyle last year. the first being i was not fulfilled as a Domme. So i did some serious soulsearching about myself and my life up to the age of 43. what is it that i needed and wanted???

i have achieved a variety of career goals that are satisfying to me, i am raising wonderful kids, my bills are paid. i proved to myself, 'i wasnt too stupid to make it without someone' but what i discovered was that something was lacking in terms of what i enjoyed. M/s for lack of a better term.

somewhere along the road called my life, i found in wanted to serve(besides helping field for a profession).this is what makes me happy,however to get to that ultimate place, i will fall, i will skin my knees, i will laugh, i will cry.....

i have made painful mistakes, not trusted my judgement but i learned from these mistakes and hopefully have gained some wisdom.(if i dont repeat the mistakes, then i have gained).

i still fight my belly and it is the ultimate trust in another and the giving up control that causes me to do this.no matter how badly my belly may desire i feel like i will be losing myself and that is hard after all i have fought to gain in my life.

so i guess it will boil down to much more training and i'm sure making more mistakes, so its not something i seek for instant gratification but if i look at the big picture, i see a happy slave.

how many Masters i will learn from i dont know. i believe people are brought into our lives for a reason, a season....

trust is a risk and growth is essential.

that about sums up where i'm at right now.


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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/19/2005 7:00:55 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing
I think we've set up this expectation in our culture that everything has to be fun and happy to be good. Many people are not willing to struggle or suffer to achieve, and yet they still want the depth and status that comes from having done the extraordinary, and had that shape -them- into something extraordinary.

Thoughts?

Lady Zephyr



Like mostly everything, a balance neds to be maintained.

Happiness is good. Happiness is also very transient.

I worry. A LOT. I obsess, I over analyze, I get anxious, I get myself in not fun kinky knots.

But I balance it by taking joy in the little things. Tiny sparks of happiness that really can make your day all better.

So, cherish happiness. But accept it for what it is and don't expect it to be what it isn't. Happiness is in the moment, fulfillment is in the long term. As long as you can balance them together simultaneously, you're doing all right.

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/19/2005 7:41:10 PM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

and the requirement that everyone in a given relationship be happy/be having fun, along with the concomitant idea that even if they agreed to something, if they find that they aren't enjoying it, they can just set it aside and quit.


I believe life is meant to be enjoyed. I am a proponent of fun. If you are not having fun at least part of the time, I see no point in it. However, how I define fun and what I enjoy might be very different than another person. For me, struggle is part of the fun. Achievement is something I enjoy.

However, I am not a big fan of suffering. If I am REALLY suffering and it is not a situation with a short term goal I am looking towards or some resolution on the horizon, I am going to make different choices. I do not feel that because I agreed to something, I am obligated to continue with it indefinitely. I also know that I have to take responsibility for my choices and how they effect others.

I consider it much the same as my short person and the soccer team. He made a commitment to join the team, others are relying on him -- he is obligated to attend every practice/game, do what the coach asks, and give his best effort. He is encouraged or required to do this even if it is hard or the other kids get to play more or the coach is not giving him as much attention or encouragement as he might like or it just isn't what he hoped.

However, once that season is over -- he is not obligated to play soccer for the rest of his life. There might be some extreme circumstances when he would be encouraged to quit mid season.

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/19/2005 9:03:26 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline
quote:

There are conversations online and off that I've heard for years, discussing the whole concept of mutual consent, and the requirement that everyone in a given relationship be happy/be having fun, along with the concomitant idea that even if they agreed to something, if they find that they aren't enjoying it, they can just set it aside and quit.


That was the main theme i found on AOL. If its not always flower and roses, then you should head out. i was once in a chatroom, checking things out and some one came on asking about how to withstand being put in chastity. The replies were "if i'm not gettin non, i'm out" Ect ect. It was mind blowing.

quote:


I'd like to hear what other people think about this, as compared with
the whole idea that we create our own happiness, nobody -makes- us happy, and that what we should be seeking in a D/s relationship (or any relationship) might be something -other- than happiness... like satisfaction or fulfillment of self or growth... in order to be able to get the most out of activities required by one's Owner/Teacher/Master that are not enjoyable, and are not fun, and are not liked, and are not pleasant. (At a later date, I'll approach this from the POV of the dominant who doesn't want to work to -keep- a servant in service.)

Frankly, I worry about servants who come to us for training, and tell us that all
they are looking for is a place to be happy and to find joy. Much of what our training encompasses is dull, repetitive, nit-picky, highly structured and highly detailed. We require tedious exercises that often leave a servant aching. We catch small errors that annoy us and stress the reality of the points we've made about requiring perfection -- not "mediocre" or "good enough", but perfection. Not many people find themselves -happy- about going through such intense and demanding training, no matter whether it is for D/s or for some other purpose (like my own monastic training in my spiritual disciplines). The idea is that the process and the relationships created by/through that process will evoke something that will make all the challenges worthwhile. Often, especially in our situation, this "something" isn't happiness, or love, or fun -- but it is a profound sense of having thrived in a setting that pushed one's abilities to their breaking point and beyond.

I think we've set up this expectation in our culture that everything has to be fun and happy to be good. Many people are not willing to struggle or suffer to achieve, and yet they still want the depth and status that comes from having done the extraordinary, and had that shape -them- into something extraordinary.

Thoughts?

Lady Zephyr


Thoughts? i think you're right. From the very begining of entering the relationship i am in, i didnt enter it to be happy, or for fun, or even for love. i never entered this lifestyle with those three words on my mind. Not once. Infact the whole "kinky" sex thing was the FARTHEST thing from my mind. it, uh, didnt even register in my brain. D/s - kinky sex? Robes, bondage, masochism, toys, ect. LOL No i didnt even think of the whole "sex" part. Didnt even occur to me that for most it is part of the package! So i learned absolutely NOTHING about it. Imagine my suprise :O So my enterage into the D/s world wasnt about sex, fun, happiness, or love. Ug, so why did i come? i honestly dunno why i have seeked any part of the lifestyle out. Maybe it was the control? Most i could ever tell anyone, is that it just FELT right. Its where i just lead myself. But i am here. Good or bad, i am here. Eventually, i likened it to a spiritual journey. Still do. And i have learned SO much about myself. So much about just life. i think i am here not for fun, sex, love, or happiness but to learn. To find me. Find me i will, whether its hard, easy or a struggle. And i am finding me. Finding things i never knew. Some of its oh so hard to learn. Some of it i catch on quickly.

i have this vision that one day i will make it to. Of kneeling before a Top and the world around me blacked out. Kneeling there only able to focus on the one. Complete and utter devotion, utter ~something~ to the One. To me, that is utter peace. To be able to surrender life and everything involved in it, to the One, and to kneel there, just waiting, waiting for them, waiting for the next command. (Yet i hate that the command word. i'm not a dog) The world zooming about you going about its normal self. And all you can see is the One. Not even yourself can you see.

That is where i am heading. How ever i get there. i WILL get there. Because i dont back down, i dont quit, and i definetly dont give up. Nor do i really care about what anyone has to say about it. That is MY journey, to MY peace, to MY self. If its not "practical" think i care? Heck no. Thats where i AM going.

Its not easy. So many things that fly about the head, issues and bagagge, millions of life's learned lessons to break through TO get there. It is a very complex vision. In my mind, it is not just "kneeling" and "thinking" about the one above.

i dont know if i have explained myself well, or if anyone can actually understand what my goal is. As i havent even a name for it. i know, it is a "personal" journey, and i expect no one else to take it. i dont even expect others to understand it. i know alot of people are here for fun and happiness, love. Thats there journey. Make they take the road that pleases them.

But as for the "sex, love, happiness, and fun" i HAVE found those things on the way in my journey. i have in my journey, found things i never knew exsisted. i've found bliss, and even peace at times, happiness. A happiness i have never known. Such a peace that it rids me of anxiety, stress, and fear. i've found love. A love i never knew exsisted. And i found the whole kinky sex thing. Which isnt as wierd as i orginially thought it :p. Fun.. well.. fun is what you make it. Fun is when i chase a certian person around and they giggle like mad, screaming at me not to capture them. = ) So i have found them, but the absence of them, does not dissuade me from my goal. As nothing will. i will reach it, come hell or high water.

Edited to add:
UG and i forgot to mention, working through all this on the way to MY goal, i have found myself to being a better person, all the time infact. It all to me, is quite amazing. WHO in the WORLD (atleast i didnt) that submitting, and control and all this mumble jumble could make you a better person?)

< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 12/19/2005 9:06:20 PM >

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/19/2005 9:10:33 PM   
veronicaofML


Posts: 1317
Joined: 11/19/2005
From: from iowa..now in wisconsin
Status: offline 		what is the Q?

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/19/2005 9:26:21 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		i dont think i made my point well. i do hope, Ladie, that you do understand what i'm getting at. That i am here for some odd reason and i have goal while being here and the extra's that come along are fine and dandy, but the absence of them will not stop me. i HAVE had the absense of them too. (as you all well know) So i'm not talking out my butt. Things are at times, VERY much a struggle for me. Struggle enough that it seems, the large majority would of quit by now. This road i am on, to the place in my mind has been absolutely amazing. i've seen, found, learned, experienced things i NEVER knew exsisted. Its awesome. No matter the crap, the bs, the struggle, the hardship. For nothing GOOD comes easy. Many crap on me for staying in my situation, but with out my situation or the people in it, i wouldnt of made it this far. And its AMAZING. i couldnt even tell ya. Respect? Never knew the meaning of the word before. Fullfillment, same. Many many things i have learned. i have evolved so much on this journey. Its just amazing. i am here for the ride. The one that is by my side on this road, come hell or high water, we're heading forward. Even if i have to pull something out of my butt to get things back on track. Out of everyone i have found in this world, in all my travels, the one i ride with is the ONLY one i have found that also does not know the meaning of "quit".

Which i suppose this thread is also about. Those that quit when they arent having fun. Eh, Ladie, i hope i have explained myself well and thanks for the thread!!!!!!!!!! (well thanks for letting me know its here) Its given me alot to think about, amaze at, and things to appreciate when it comes to this road we all take for different reasons.

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/19/2005 11:07:31 PM   
OscarHargraves


Posts: 693
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline 		I am quite happy with who I am and where I am in life. Yes, I need someone by my side to make me feel 'complete' but so does she so it works out well. We call that marriage and it has been (with a couple of exceptions) the most fulfilling experience of my life. Of course we're still newly weds (35 years) so we'll have to wait and see if it is going to work out.

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/20/2005 1:00:32 AM   
Wolfie648


Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

There are conversations online and off that I've heard for years, discussing the whole concept of mutual consent, and the requirement that everyone in a given relationship be happy/be having fun, along with the concomitant idea that even if they agreed to something, if they find that they aren't enjoying it, they can just set it aside and quit.


Re: Quitting.

D/s

Dominant/submissive - submissive has the power - the power to say no the power to say not today - not ever - not so hard - power to stop the scene - etc.

Owner/slave

Owner has the power. Quitting for the 'sub' 'slave' is not an option. Fun is at the owner's discretion.

It's about recognising what you want (if anything), what you are willing to settle for (if anything), and who you need to be (if anything).

D (owner of j)



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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/20/2005 2:42:50 AM   
sweetpettjenny


Posts: 674
Joined: 11/7/2004
Status: offline 		i can be happy with or without a Master. Although i will never choose to be in a Master/slave relationship that didn't bring me happiness. i sometimes get tired of hearing its all about the Dominant, that is a load of crud. we chose this lifestyle, and it was chosen because it is something that drives us all and pleases us , whether it be from the submissive/slave side or Dominant side of the spectrum. If it didn't please the submissive to be a part of the dynamic of the specific relationship , it frankly wouldn't last. my slaves creed ( that i wrote ) , i mention that i will joyfully serve as Masters needs are met accordingly. Keywords for me are joyfully , and Masters needs. Without joy , in serving i fail.
respectfully written,
jenny

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/20/2005 4:53:55 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
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quote:

the whole idea that we create our own happiness, nobody -makes- us happy, and that what we should be seeking in a D/s relationship (or any relationship) might be something -other- than happiness... like satisfaction or fulfillment of self or growth...


I believe that we all make our own happiness. You find someone that you are compatible with, and then you make a conscious choice to be happy or unhappy. Sometimes, its an unconscious choice, one that you are unaware of. I don't believe that you have to 'be with' someone to be happy, either in this or in a vanilla relationship.

From my own standpoint, BDSM and d/s, while I am 'happy' on my own, I am still not complete. It is so ingrained in me that I would not be complete unless I was with someone.

But, I really don't worry that much about what I am missing right now. I am content, and know that one day, will be complete.

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/20/2005 6:27:51 AM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		This is an issue I wrestled with as it pertained to My late Mother--she always looked to others to provide or validate her happiness, though I repeatedly tried to tell her, happiness and contentment needs to come from inside one's self--if we expect others to make us happy--or help us get "there" ( whereever the elusive there is...) life will zoom by, and only in the last few moments will we realize it was all right there in front of us--she died that way, never knowing, never seeing--

what D/s does IMHO is provide a sense of completeness, a sense of community, the ability to have a need/desire recognized and fulfilled by another---but if the self contentment isn't there---then one is doomed to wander--

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/24/2005 8:01:54 PM   
Nendarye


Posts: 147
Joined: 12/23/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I rely on no one else for my own happiness. Sure, I would much rather be happy with someone, but I can not let myself rely on them to give me that.

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/25/2005 5:57:43 AM   
sweetpettjenny


Posts: 674
Joined: 11/7/2004
Status: offline 		I agree completely... but there are successes when a true relationship is developed. I will not engage in a Master/slave relationship where there is no hope for it to be built around a loving context. For me i submit freely and wholely because i love the man im with. So i am lucky that i can derive joy and peace from serving . Both of my past D/s relationships were long term, because of this. My christmas wish this year is that Wes and i last long term or forever perhaps would be better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshine333

one thought i have on this (and i may have more later) is that we don't see a lot of slavery success stories. the more common succusses we see are people graduating from college, martial artists achieving black belts, performers gaining wealth and recognition, athletes winning olympic medals ... etc. people will be more likely to embark on tedious, rough, highly structured and disciplined trainings if they are relatively certain the payoff will be worth their effort.

i think it's difficult for people to see slave training as a means to make them a better person ... and intense, rigorous slave training a means to make them an extraordinary person. it we truely believed that ... and had the statistics to back it up ... we might be more willing to accept the unpleasantries of slavery as a means to an end.

but that isn't the case. so my guess is that (for the most part) we are in it for the temporary enjoyment it brings, on whatever level that might take. i'm sure there are a lot of people who look at the big picture and make long term goals and are open to seeing it through even during hard times. but, generally speaking, i think people are more interested in instant gratification.

humbly,
sunshine


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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/25/2005 7:11:59 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing

There are conversations online and off that I've heard for years, discussing the whole concept of mutual consent, and the requirement that everyone in a given relationship be happy/be having fun, along with the concomitant idea that even if they agreed to something, if they find that they aren't enjoying it, they can just set it aside and quit.

(snip)

I think we've set up this expectation in our culture that everything has to be fun and happy to be good. Many people are not willing to struggle or suffer to achieve, and yet they still want the depth and status that comes from having done the extraordinary, and had that shape -them- into something extraordinary.

Thoughts?

Lady Zephyr



I judge a relationship (Ds or otherwise) by two basic criteria: does the good outweight the bad AND does it help me become better.

Good doesn't equal fun or happy necessarily. I may have lots of momentary fun eats lots of fudge but healthwise it isn't very good for me.

Better to mean suggests overall growth and improvement. Sometimes it takes negative things to get us to grow and improve. That's life.

You aren't married for 13+ years and then also own a slave for 6+ years and not learn that Ds is work.

But I think you are correct, Lady Zephyr, that some folks who get into BDSM see it as FUN and when it isn't they don't stay the long haul. But isn't this also true for non-BDSM things as well?


< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 12/25/2005 7:12:22 AM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Happiness, fun, commitment and D/s. - 12/25/2005 7:19:56 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

But I think you are correct, Lady Zephyr, that some folks who get into BDSM see it as FUN and when it isn't they don't stay the long haul. But isn't this also true for non-BDSM things as well?



First, I would like to thank you so much for responding. To address the question you had at the end of your post, to my sorrow I've found that it's true for many, many things -- and seems to be becoming pandemic. For me, I spend a lot of time thinking on, meditating on, and developing/preparing for the training that I do with our servants and the Abbey's acolytes, and I spend a great deal of time observing the "common condition" from my perspective as abbess here... so this is only one aspect of what I see happening more and more pervasively throughout our culture; the drive for instant gratificiation, the idea that struggles mean "quit", the promotion of mediocrity and the degradation of a individual ethical responsibility and individual high standards. On a board like Collarchat, I'll present these things from the perspective of the BDSM, D/s and M/s communities. Somewhere else (an education list, a spirituality list) I might address other manifestations, but this seemed like a good focus here. *S*

Happy holidays,

Lady Zephyr


_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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