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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 1:38:18 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		I learned in my research that dog means cat i.e. let’s change the whole meaning of the word cat. I can understand people debating what God is but never those that debate what words mean.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 1:46:50 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Although one cannot debate anything if the semantics change willy nilly to the personal preferences of the debaters :-) . 

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 2:06:40 PM   
slvemike4u


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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 2:29:19 PM   
MadRabbit


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Status: offline 		I'm glad you found the few online dictionaries that support your narrow definitions.

Theism, broadly defined, is just the belief in the existence of at least one god. Contrasted with this is atheism: broadly defined, atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of any gods. Most disagreement over this comes from Christians who insist that atheism must be the denial of gods, or at least of their god. Mere absence of belief in gods is, they claim, properly labeled agnosticism — even though agnosticism has it's own definition and is about a different concept entirely.
 
The broad definition of atheism is most accurate. It's not only the definition atheists use, but it's supported by most comprehensive, unabridged dictionaries.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/whatisatheism.htm

There is, unfortunately, some disagreement about the definition of atheism. It is interesting to note that most of that disagreement comes from theists — atheists themselves tend to agree on what atheism means. Christians in particular dispute the definition used by atheists and insist that atheism means something very different.
 
The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made — an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist. Sometimes this broader understanding is called "weak" or "implicit" atheism. Most good, complete dictionaries readily support this.
 
There also exists a narrower sort of atheism, sometimes called "strong" or "explicit" atheism. With this type, the atheist explicitly denies the existence of any gods — making a strong claim which will deserve support at some point. Some atheists do this and others may do this with regards to certain specific gods but not with others. Thus, a person may lack belief in one god, but deny the existence of another god.
 
Unfortunately, misunderstandings arise because many theists imagine that all atheists fit this most narrow, limited form of the concept of atheism. Reliance upon dishonest apologists and cheap dictionaries only exacerbates the problem. So, when someone identifies themselves as an atheist, all you can do is assume that they lack belief in the existence of any gods. You cannot assume that they deny any gods or some particular god — if you want to find out about that, you will have to ask.
 
http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/whatisatheism.htm

This issue is rather important to me, because I am rather proud of my Atheist label. I am also tired of the misunderstanding of what Atheism is and getting labeled in the narrow definitions pressed upon me by theists who want to make me out to be grinding an axe against God and atheists who label themselves agnostics because they lack the balls to deal with the bigotry and ignorance that surrounds the label of Atheist.

Further more, if we look at other dictionaries, we can find that this article is grounded in reality based on the definitions present.

Wikipedia
 
atheism (plural atheisms)
  1. Absence of belief in the existence of God or gods.
  2. The belief that there are no gods, the denial of the existence of God or gods.

agnosticism (uncountable)
  1. the view that absolute truth or ultimate certainty is unattainable, especially regarding knowledge not based on experience or perceivable phenomena.
  2. the view that the existence of God or of all deities is unknown, unknowable, unproven, or unprovable.
  3. doubt, uncertainty, or skepticism regarding the existence of God or of all deities.

Merriam-Webster Online

Main Entry:
athe·ism
a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity

Main Entry:
1ag·nos·tic
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable ; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god As I said before, for the sake of fairness, most dictionaries allow room for your interpretation of a narrow definition, but please don't try to set it in stone as the way Atheists define themselves. It only serves to spread ignorance as to what those who take on the label Atheist are about and not merely some kind of apathetic theist hell bent on rejecting the existence of God. You may not be Yoda, but you would play a good one on TV.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 2:30:33 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Although one cannot debate anything if the semantics change willy nilly to the personal preferences of the debaters :-) . 


I agree which is why I substantiate my claims, particularly on semantical issues that are rather important if Atheists hope to educate Theists about what Atheism really is beyond their narrow-minded stereotypes.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 2:42:50 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

I learned in my research that dog means cat i.e. let’s change the whole meaning of the word cat. I can understand people debating what God is but never those that debate what words mean.


Nor do I understand people who pontificate on things they obviously haven't had any in-depth knowledge of beyond the common perceptions pressed upon it by mainstream religious society.

If you participate in atheist and free thinker message boards, you will see that the broader definition is more prevalent.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 11/12/2008 2:45:04 PM >

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 4:22:49 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
If god does exist, there is ample enough evidence that god is a sadistic, paranoid schitzophrenic with a multiple personality disorder and a serious dose of meglamania. 


I disagree. God could be well above our human preocupations. Why assume God is necessarily a creator who's responsible for his creation and who we have to answer to? I imagine God would be far detached from the contingencies of life.


I always wonder if God is a personal God listening to our daily prayers...aware of our insignificant problems... changing our lives in some master plan. Or is he just a source...a guide...an example of the correct way of living and a reckoning will come at our passing.
I’m not alone in these thoughts I’m sure.

Oh well I will find out one way other the other soon enough.

Butch

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 4:28:33 PM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I missed it, but he should be on trial.

He's been silent for a few thousand years, allowing every numbnut with a picture of his face in a blueberry muffin to speak for him and bring endless war, persecution, and hysteria.

Are those the actions of a responsible parent? Leaving his kids unattended in the house so they can run rampant with no clear sense of direction and discipline?


A parent’s job isn’t to always protect, but to teach and prepare their offspring to be responsible, productively contributing adults.
 
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RE: God on Trial - 11/13/2008 11:21:05 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Nor do I understand people who pontificate on things they obviously haven't had any in-depth knowledge of beyond the common perceptions pressed upon it by mainstream religious society.

Pontificate? You seem to like that word. Being an atheist you should probably avoid threads where God is 'pontificated' about as the only thing you can ever add to the discussion is he doesn't exist. Sorry you find it hard to accept a label which indicates you may have a closed mind but that is the rub of calling yourself 'atheist' and you can't change that definition to show you are capable of open mindedness all you can do is call yourself agnostic and stop splitting hairs as Deity and God has negligible difference anyway.

Look at the Greek origin of the word 'atheist' it is simple and hard to confuse. Agnostic is also hard to confuse unless you want to confuse it for your own convenience. 
quote:


If you participate in atheist and free thinker message boards, you will see that the broader definition is more prevalent.

10,000 idiots with the wrong answer are still 10,000 idiots with the wrong answer. The definition is simple only those that don't know about the origin of words create their own definitions and cause grey areas that were once black and white

The dictionary that supports my argument as you put it is one of the oldest in history. Sorry, in my mind you are wrong and since I'm the only one in this discussion with you I think you are wasting your time that could be spent asking Wikipedia what the ingredients of water are.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 11/13/2008 11:22:36 AM >

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RE: God on Trial - 11/13/2008 11:34:04 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		Also by your definition of atheist you don't think about the existance of God so do me a favor and stop thinking about it now by avoiding all future threads with the word God in the title.
 
Your definition or my definition you have no place wanting to talk about god so stop doing it.
 
I on the other hand will pontificate on the subject until the cows come home, be elsewhere if it annoys you.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/13/2008 1:58:15 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Nor do I understand people who pontificate on things they obviously haven't had any in-depth knowledge of beyond the common perceptions pressed upon it by mainstream religious society.

Pontificate? You seem to like that word. Being an atheist you should probably avoid threads where God is 'pontificated' about as the only thing you can ever add to the discussion is he doesn't exist. Sorry you find it hard to accept a label which indicates you may have a closed mind but that is the rub of calling yourself 'atheist' and you can't change that definition to show you are capable of open mindedness all you can do is call yourself agnostic and stop splitting hairs as Deity and God has negligible difference anyway.

Look at the Greek origin of the word 'atheist' it is simple and hard to confuse. Agnostic is also hard to confuse unless you want to confuse it for your own convenience. 
quote:


If you participate in atheist and free thinker message boards, you will see that the broader definition is more prevalent.

10,000 idiots with the wrong answer are still 10,000 idiots with the wrong answer. The definition is simple only those that don't know about the origin of words create their own definitions and cause grey areas that were once black and white

The dictionary that supports my argument as you put it is one of the oldest in history. Sorry, in my mind you are wrong and since I'm the only one in this discussion with you I think you are wasting your time that could be spent asking Wikipedia what the ingredients of water are.


Allow me to paraphrase your response....

*sticks fingers in ears* LaLa! I don't care about your substantiated argument! LaLa! Your just wrong! LaLa! I'm not listening!

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RE: God on Trial - 11/13/2008 2:02:05 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Also by your definition of atheist you don't think about the existance of God so do me a favor and stop thinking about it now by avoiding all future threads with the word God in the title.
 
Your definition or my definition you have no place wanting to talk about god so stop doing it.
 
I on the other hand will pontificate on the subject until the cows come home, be elsewhere if it annoys you.


Forming theories and exploring the issue, if somewhat pointless outside of intellectual exercise, is far from forming a belief and taking a stance.

This is different then being an agnostic where the stance is formed that existence of God is unknowable, but still exists.

I adhere to my definition as a weak Atheist which is supported and substantiated by the sources I cited above.

Feel free to keep ignoring your fallibility in this and proceeding to tell me how wrong I am. It's amusing.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/13/2008 2:08:25 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		There is no argument no debate, you are discussing how you describe yourself and I don't care about that. You are turning the whole thing into a 'what is and isn't an atheist', you have your idea I have mine. Lets just agree that I don't know what you are doing on a thread discussing God because you being an atheist either don't care or you being an atheist can only give your no god argument; depending on if you are this so called hardliner atheist or not.
 
This is why we are now talking about what atheist means because you being this atheist are incapable of discussing God. End of discussion no? I'm not going to talk about words and you are not going to talk about God so let’s just call it a day.


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RE: God on Trial - 11/13/2008 2:11:00 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

There is no argument no debate, you are discussing how you describe yourself and I don't care about that. You are turning the whole thing into a 'what is and isn't an atheist', you have your idea I have mine. Lets just agree that I don't know what you are doing on a thread discussing God because you being an atheist either don't care or you being an atheist can only give your no god argument; depending on if you are this so called hardliner atheist or not.
 
This is why we are now talking about what atheist means because you being this atheist are incapable of discussing God. End of discussion no? I'm not going to talk about words and you are not going to talk about God so let’s just call it a day.



Well, you certainly seem to be spending a lot of time telling me what I am not when you don't care and arguing semantics when your not going to.

Kind of like you are presuming to tell me what I will or will not do as an Atheist.

I would use that word pontificate again, but your obviously familar with it.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/13/2008 2:23:21 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
This is different then being an agnostic where the stance is formed that existence of God is unknowable, but still exists.

No the definition of agnostic is 'someone that believes nothing can be known about the existence of God."
This includes the question as to if God exists at all and does not presume God to exist.
quote:


I adhere to my definition as a weak Atheist which is supported and substantiated by the sources I cited above.

The internet is full of sources, the problem is in reality few are experts on the subject and they don't typically dwell on the web. The internet is great for information as long as you don't require it to be of a particular standard.
quote:


Feel free to keep ignoring your fallibility in this and proceeding to tell me how wrong I am. It's amusing.

You know how wrong you are deep down or hopefully one day you will when you realise there is no shame in saying "Well I thought I was an atheist but it turns out I don't have a clue what atheist means." The problem is you are trying to bend the meaning of agnostic because you realise it would be a redundant term if your version of atheist existed. I’m not going to debate words anymore this is my final post on the subject of words.



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RE: God on Trial - 11/13/2008 2:34:01 PM   
susie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Also by your definition of atheist you don't think about the existance of God so do me a favor and stop thinking about it now by avoiding all future threads with the word God in the title.
 
Your definition or my definition you have no place wanting to talk about god so stop doing it.
 
I on the other hand will pontificate on the subject until the cows come home, be elsewhere if it annoys you.


So your stance is that we can only take part in threads that we believe in. I don't believe in male submissives but I will still take part in discussions if I feel I have something to say.

As for God I cannot for one minute believe there is such a thing. I chatted the other day to someone in Egypt who was born muslim and converted to christianity. I asked if that meant he believed in the same god each time and he said no. So I asked him if there were 2 gods and he said no only one, the one he believed in now. He could not explain how that god was different to the one he believed in as a muslim.

Another muslim told me that as I did not believe in god then I was evil and he would make sure I was dead in 3 days for not believing. Very religious.

Just proves the whole god thing is nonsense.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/13/2008 3:03:40 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		Excuse me, but it was not god that broke the covenant with the Jewish people, but the Jewish people who broke the covenant.  If you would remember the old testament, every time God bailed them out, they would do something else to mess it up. 

Besides, it was prophesied that the Jewish people would be scattered to the four corners of the earth for their sins, also in the old testament.

Now granted, I think that he was a bit harsh with the Holocaust, but it did directly lead to the reformation of Israel.

The point is that God asks that his followers have faith that he knows what is best and to follow his commandments.  Fail in either one and you are will find out the cost.

Thus, putting God on trial would constitute a frame up.

As for Atheism:

The primary argument used by many who proclaim themselves as atheists cites the lack of empirical evidence.

At this point I would like to point out that there is no empirical evidence for the existence of  advanced alien life, therefore, there cannot be any other life in the galaxy but that found on earth.


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RE: God on Trial - 11/14/2008 3:09:51 PM   
hlen5


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Status: offline 		  What I found most moving in the show was  the goodness amongst all the evil. The father saving his son by trading places with him or the younger father describing the beauty of his boys and ordered to make a horrific choice. The younger father still feeling the Prescence (sp?) within the barbed wire.
These men are making beds in a burning house. Half of them won't be there the next day and they are discussing their faith. Newsweek (or Time) once posed the question "Are We Hardwired for Faith"? Even in such unimaginable surroundings, they are still debating their faith and the creator of that faith. 

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RE: God on Trial - 11/15/2008 5:49:24 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: susie
So your stance is that we can only take part in threads that we believe in. I don't believe in male submissives but I will still take part in discussions if I feel I have something to say.

No my stance is: I don't know why you would want to. If you have a closed mind you can't add much to a discussion on the subject that you have a closed mind about and if someone claims to not think about the existence of God then why would they participate in such a discussion anyway?
 
Also let us not confuse my beliefs with my explanations because me arguing something could be true is just me arguing something is possible not me arguing that I believe in that single explanation. If one person makes an explanation and backs it up with reasoning and the other just parrots 'there is no God because the world is a cruel place' then what kind of discussion is that? The world being a cruel place doesn't prove anything, nasty people winning the lottery doesn't prove anything other than we may be presuming the wrong things about something.
 
Male submissive exist I'm told.


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RE: God on Trial - 11/15/2008 5:57:21 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: susie
As for God I cannot for one minute believe there is such a thing. I chatted the other day to someone in Egypt who was born muslim and converted to christianity. I asked if that meant he believed in the same god each time and he said no. So I asked him if there were 2 gods and he said no only one, the one he believed in now. He could not explain how that god was different to the one he believed in as a muslim.

Another muslim told me that as I did not believe in god then I was evil and he would make sure I was dead in 3 days for not believing. Very religious.

Just proves the whole god thing is nonsense.

Stop talking to religious people they know nothing more than the rest of us, this alone hardly proves anything definitively other than people use the idea of god to justify their own path in life and demand everyone else follows their example.
 
I don't hold anyone in high esteem just because they are religious, I don't know why anyone would but some do, It's more likely the Pope will be kissing my feet than the other way around.

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