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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/16/2008 11:19:17 AM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

If our opinions are shaped by society how do we know what creates society?


We humans create society.

I've said enough on this thread.


How do we know who creates society, how do we know tat 'god' doesnt influence it all, we dont thats the point. Also thats the second time you have 'left the thread' so i repeat, do you need to argue against faith to make yourself feel more assured in your belief


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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/16/2008 11:24:54 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

If our opinions are shaped by society how do we know what creates society?


We humans create society.

I've said enough on this thread.


How do we know who creates society, how do we know tat 'god' doesnt influence it all, we dont thats the point. Also thats the second time you have 'left the thread' so i repeat, do you need to argue against faith to make yourself feel more assured in your belief



We don't know, that's why some people have faith in their imaginary worlds and some people believe in knowledge formed by experience, discovery and research.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/16/2008 11:45:11 AM   
Aswad


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Status: offline 		What do you do when your faith concurs with everything you find through experience, discovery and research, while contradicting none of it?

A fairy tale notion of one or more gods or goddesses is not a prerequisite to faith, belief, religion or anything else of the sort.

For that matter, I have seen few definitions of what a god/ess is, apart from those that are human shorthand.

Not all religion resembles the stuff atheists usually got shoved down their throats at some point.

Which is why it seems silly to make it a game of "show me where God touched you" ...

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/16/2008 11:47:27 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I would have no problem with a creator being an integral part of the universe and does not break its rules on behalf of some people who believe they know what that creator wants and plans. Until such a consciousness is proved, I prefer to be with the scientists scratching around in the dark for any proof we can find to add to our knowledge of the universe.
 
Thank you. Except for your persistence with the "creator" motif, that's close enough to the line for me.

The study of consciousness presents a major problem for science, however, because there is no way for conciousness to study itself and conform to scientific method. Instrumentation, while independent, can only observe epiphenomena of different states of consciousness, not consciousness itself. Consciousness can only be known directly. I would dare to suggest that it is worth an individual's investment of time and effort to do so. But I think it is the nature of the beast that no more than that can be said without resorting to metaphor or nonsense.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/16/2008 11:57:41 AM >

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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/16/2008 12:28:51 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I would have no problem with a creator being an integral part of the universe and does not break its rules on behalf of some people who believe they know what that creator wants and plans. Until such a consciousness is proved, I prefer to be with the scientists scratching around in the dark for any proof we can find to add to our knowledge of the universe.
 
Thank you. Except for your persistence with the "creator" motif, that's close enough to the line for me.

The study of consciousness presents a major problem for science, however, because there is no way for conciousness to study itself and conform to scientific method. Instrumentation, while independent, can only observe epiphenomena of different states of consciousness, not consciousness itself. Consciousness can only be known directly. I would dare to suggest that it is worth an individual's investment of time and effort to do so. But I think it is the nature of the beast that no more than that can be said without resorting to metaphor or nonsense.

K.




Not knowing (take you pick about what) could be temporary or it could be a permanent state of not knowing. Science isn't about knowing why, it is about knowing how so it really doesn't address the issue of there being or not being a god. Just because we don't know something however, doesn't prove there must be something else to fill the gaps in our knowledge, it could just mean as creatures our perceptions and understanding are limited by our biology. Most people find it easy to accept the preceptions of other creatures are limited by their biology, why should humans be so different?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/16/2008 12:30:01 PM >

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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/16/2008 12:37:16 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

What do you do when your faith concurs with everything you find through experience, discovery and research, while contradicting none of it?



I doubt it would because experience, discovery and research are about how rather than why. As the chidren's saying goes 'Why is a crooked letter and you cannot straighten it.' Faith is about 'why', maybe it is a human need but its not a need everyone has and it is a futile need since it can't be answered, even Budha recognized that when he said god(s) were a part of human desire and by implication, a cause of human misery.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/16/2008 12:38:00 PM >

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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/16/2008 12:47:37 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Science isn't about knowing why, it is about knowing how so it really doesn't address the issue of there being or not being a god. Just because we don't know something however, doesn't prove there must be something else to fill the gaps in our knowledge, it could just mean as creatures our perceptions and understanding are limited by our biology. Most people find it easy to accept the preceptions of other creatures are limited by their biology, why should humans be so different?

Oh I accept that, and raising the issue of a "god" somewhere crosses the line back into religious myth. It is possible that life and ourselves are much more than we realize. No need to have "god" on one side of the equation and "man" on the other. My only quibble is with closing doors by arguing (as many do) that there's nothing "more". I think we are the "more". Of course, that's just based on my interpretation of experience. But sometimes people don't even want to look or question or seek, adopting instead a stance that is just as dogmatic as any religionist.
 
Be well,

K.
 
 

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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/16/2008 12:53:54 PM   
HagiaSophia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: HagiaSophia

How can something that originates within us, because of us, be a "higher power"?

Well, if life and the universe is deity manifest, then... deity was born into human form in your body and grew up with your experiences... and is "you".
 
K.
 


I actually like that concept, similar to (Hartshorne? Price?) the deity with potential (that is, not fully expressed). It was posited by one theologian that god's sum was increased by the knowledge that we acquired in our lives. I can run with that (hypothetically speaking). I have such a hard time buying the whole "deity" concept, but a god that grows is a good one. It gives us purpose that is otherwise lacking in the Christian framework.


< Message edited by HagiaSophia -- 11/16/2008 1:00:29 PM >

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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/16/2008 12:56:21 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Science isn't about knowing why, it is about knowing how so it really doesn't address the issue of there being or not being a god. Just because we don't know something however, doesn't prove there must be something else to fill the gaps in our knowledge, it could just mean as creatures our perceptions and understanding are limited by our biology. Most people find it easy to accept the preceptions of other creatures are limited by their biology, why should humans be so different?

Oh I accept that, and raising the issue of a "god" somewhere crosses the line back into religious myth. It is possible that life and ourselves are much more than we realize. No need to have "god" on one side of the equation and "man" on the other. My only quibble is with closing doors by arguing (as many do) that there's nothing "more". I think we are the "more". Of course, that's just based on my interpretation of experience. But sometimes people don't even want to look or question or seek, adopting instead a stance that is just as dogmatic as any religionist.
 
Be well,

K.
 


I don't rule out there not being more, we just don't know if there are doors, never mind where they are and probably never will, at least on this side of the grave so they are irrelevent.

Where I disagree with people of ''faith' is the idea of a supernatural being that interjects on behalf of people who worship this vain being who then gives out favours to his/hers/its followers.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/16/2008 1:40:38 PM   
Vendaval


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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/16/2008 7:24:08 PM   
ineedotk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NormalOutside

quote:

ORIGINAL: ineedotkwhen you consider how complex the world is, and how much of a detailed, self-sustaining machine the human body is, and the extent of our thinking, reasoning, and creative abilities, do you really think this all came about simply through some kind of evolutionary process?

I know it did.  You would too, if you read into it.  It's scientifically proven.  To deny evolution is to deny science, and if you're on that boat, you're already sunk.  "Sorry!"




Actually, I have read into it.  And having done so further strengthened my belief in creation over evolution.  Because the more researched it, the more convinced I became that there was no way that evolution could have resulted in the world and all thats exists in it that we see today.  Creation by some kind of higher source is the only thing I can come up with.  This world is too great to have just evolved from something. 

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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/17/2008 10:42:33 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ineedotk

quote:

ORIGINAL: NormalOutside

quote:

ORIGINAL: ineedotkwhen you consider how complex the world is, and how much of a detailed, self-sustaining machine the human body is, and the extent of our thinking, reasoning, and creative abilities, do you really think this all came about simply through some kind of evolutionary process?

I know it did.  You would too, if you read into it.  It's scientifically proven.  To deny evolution is to deny science, and if you're on that boat, you're already sunk.  "Sorry!"




Actually, I have read into it.  And having done so further strengthened my belief in creation over evolution.  Because the more researched it, the more convinced I became that there was no way that evolution could have resulted in the world and all thats exists in it that we see today.  Creation by some kind of higher source is the only thing I can come up with.  This world is too great to have just evolved from something. 


Evolution isn't a theory, its an observable process. Why would you dismiss something that can be observed for a preference that is a figment of the imagination?

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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/17/2008 10:52:47 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ineedotk
Actually, I have read into it.  And having done so further strengthened my belief in creation over evolution.  Because the more researched it, the more convinced I became that there was no way that evolution could have resulted in the world and all thats exists in it that we see today.  Creation by some kind of higher source is the only thing I can come up with.  This world is too great to have just evolved from something. 

Then you didn't research it very well or very deeply. The evidence of evolution as the origin of the diversity of life is overwhelming. It goes from the overall similiarities of our biochemistries and the fact that the differences in detail show the same pattern of relationship shown by multiple other lines of inquiry to a fossil record detailing all the major and many thousands of minor evolutionary developments.

Hold any spiritual belief you want but don't deny the overwhelming evidence of science in the process it just makes you and your beliefs look bad to paraphrase St. Augustine.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/17/2008 11:14:29 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		You make a very good point here about a common myth, NG.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
One final thought on a popular misconception: you don't have to be spiritual or god fearing to marvel at the world around you.


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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/18/2008 12:28:59 AM   
SirWAX


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That man is probably the best atheist I have heard speak his views passionately. It must be said though that even he didn't believe in death, just a transition. So I guess that is something different though with it's amalgamation of several other "ists" out there.

In response to the original poster: yes, there are atheists here.

What would interest me is what atheists on this board think happens when they die... but that may be a different thread altogether by how this one is turning out.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/18/2008 12:36:33 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Hold any spiritual belief you want but don't deny the overwhelming evidence of science in the process it just makes you and your beliefs look bad to paraphrase St. Augustine.

The problems that arise with the notion of a Creator have been mentioned before, and I would not attempt to defend the idea. But natural selection is largely a "horizontal" process of adaptation. What drives evolution forward toward more and more complex forms of life? The standard answer is chance mutations, but attributing something to "chance" is simply a way of not explaining it.
 
K.
 
 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/18/2008 12:38:17 AM >

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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/18/2008 12:42:11 AM   
philosophy


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ORIGINAL: Kirata

The standard answer is chance mutations, but attributing something to "chance" is simply a way of not explaining it.
 
 


...there's a word missing from your summation of the 'standard' answer.......the phrase ought to read 'successful chance mutations'. 
The business world gives us a good metaphor for seeing how this works. Remember the Dot.com revolution? A vast amount of what could be described as mutant businesses suddenly sprang into being to take advantage of a new business environment. No-one planned it, no intelligent design at play. Not all of those businesses succeeded, indeed most didn't...but the ones that did are immensely successful.........

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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/18/2008 12:56:51 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

A vast amount of what could be described as mutant businesses suddenly sprang into being to take advantage of a new business environment.

I'm missing whatever it is you see in this example as analogous to the forward evolution of higher and more complex forms of life. But try this analogy: I posted that the standard answer to how do you win at craps is by chance. You argued no, the correct answer is by "successful" chance. That clears everything up, eh?

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/18/2008 1:23:53 AM >

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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/18/2008 5:01:05 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Faith is about 'why', maybe it is a human need but its not a need everyone has and it is a futile need since it can't be answered, even Budha recognized that when he said god(s) were a part of human desire and by implication, a cause of human misery.


Huh? Faith is not about 'why', although a lot of people make it out to be (including you, apparently).

If you apply logic to it, you will eventually arrive at a simple fact: 'why' is a question without any answer but what we set for ourselves, whether you are a god/dess, a spirit, a human, an animal or a rock. Therefore, some of us are content to simply live, without looking for any 'why' beyond whatever purpose we select for ourselves, much like the rock, save that the rock doesn't change it's mind (and a very Zen mind that is: its awareness of itself is one with itself, and its only thought, neh?).

My religion does not supply an answer to 'why', except to look to yourself.

Essentially, to look to who and what you are, and to what purpose life has prepared you for, if any.

Regardless of who and what you are, I doubt you will find a more viable approximation to an answer to 'why' anywhere.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Any atheists here? - 11/18/2008 5:12:59 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HagiaSophia

It gives us purpose that is otherwise lacking in the Christian framework.


Is it really lacking?

God grows from the Mesopotamian stage*, through the Judaic stage, to the early Christian stage, then the priests click "disconnect call."

With Utnapishtim, God first learns the value of life, and what it is to regret what one has done.

With the Judaic stage, God learns about community, society and patronage.

And so forth; sorry, just realized what time it is, got to run.

Health,
al-Aswad.

* There is ample evidence to support that the common notion of God comes from the Mesopotamian polytheism. For instance, the transition in the names of scribes from Sumerian to Semitic, while what is written remains in Sumerian. Or the commonality in content, starting with Genesis 1:1, and proceeding with things like Enlil cleaving An (father sky) from Ki (mother earth).


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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