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What is Submissive? - 12/20/2005 7:47:21 PM

RiotGirl

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Okay, i tried doing a real quick look in the archives. But i'm having a dicussion with my sister and she seems to have ALL the wrong ideas of what being submissive means. Oddly, i am at a loss. i can not detaily explain to her What submissive is. LOL and every time i try she's like well i do that.. and my boyfriend does that.. does that make me submissive? Which they do in a sense.. but down to the grit what is it?

(i'd go for lack of sleep, meds for my back being the general cause of mental relapse)

Post #: 1

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/20/2005 7:58:00 PM

RiotGirl

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Okay, friends to the rescue! Dunno why i was having such a hard time! Its not like i didnt know the answer, but my brain couldnt get around the mumbo jumbo being said to the plain facts of it. So i got it now!

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 2

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/20/2005 8:48:26 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Being submissive is being fulfilled in a primary personal intimate relationship by transferring authority over your life in most day to day aspects to another who uses that authority.

It can LOOK just like any other relationship- it's not about what you DO, or how long you kneel or how naked you get. It's just how you relate.

That's my current working definition.

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 3

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/20/2005 10:02:31 PM

OscarHargraves

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Submissiveness is an ATTITUDE about how you will allow another person to control all or part of your life. It is the ability of one person to submit to the wishes of another without regard for their own personal feelings. In fact a true Submissive enjoys and takes pleasure from the fact that they are pleasing their dominant whether or not they are pleasing themselves at the time.

< Message edited by OscarHargraves -- 12/20/2005 10:03:17 PM >

_____________________________

Never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly ! !

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 4

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/20/2005 11:06:14 PM

Chaingang

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Some may find this off-topic for submission, bit I think of it as very closely related and the similarities might spark further discussion - Padriag's "The Slave's Heart":

http://www.collarchat.com/m_200330/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#200489

Anyway, maybe the bastard will now publish the whole thing for us instead of just tossing us an excerpt.

=)

I would personally see submission as a component of slavery in a S/m or D/s context.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to OscarHargraves)

Post #: 5

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 5:07:00 AM

Yourkitten

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Joined: 10/28/2005
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i am just full of sites to go to. there is a site and its very good. castlerealm.com. on there is just about everything you can think of and its free.

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 6

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 5:49:36 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkitten

i am just full of sites to go to. there is a site and its very good. castlerealm.com. on there is just about everything you can think of and its free.

It also gets hardly any respect and is considered the fluffiest and over romantic site out there that willfill heads with illusions and roses and not reality.

I think there's a lot of good in it, as long as people see it through the lens of reality.

(in reply to Yourkitten)

Post #: 7

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 6:05:34 AM

Jasmyn

Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
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Riotgirl, look at it this way ...folding a partner's socks or having a fetish for kissing a partner's shoes does not define a submissive.

It is the relationship they are having, not the individuals themselves, that dictates the rules.

Thus, folding a partner's socks because in that relationship it is your place to, or you have being given an order too, or you have no other choice but to, is submissive.

Thus, having to kiss a partner's shoes because in that relationship it is your place to, or you have being given an order too, or you have no other choice but to, is submissive.

Agreeing to live by these rules, in that relationship, makes them a submissive.

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

Visit My Website

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 8

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 7:36:06 AM

Padriag

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Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Being submissive is being fulfilled in a primary personal intimate relationship by transferring authority over your life in most day to day aspects to another who uses that authority.

It can LOOK just like any other relationship- it's not about what you DO, or how long you kneel or how naked you get. It's just how you relate.

That's my current working definition.

I'd agree with this with one minor change. From this "authority over your life in most day to day aspects" to this "some degree of authority" I think the real crux in the debate over the difference between a sub and a slave really comes down to the degree of authority transferred. Among subs, the degree of authority varies anywhere from just bedroom play / sex to life in the home, to control of the check book. Every couple has to define where that "degree of transferr" is, and its one of those things where there is no right or wrong answer, just what is right for them.

One of the things that sets a Submissive (proper noun) in this lifestyle apart from someone who has a submissive (adjective) personality, is that the Submissive makes a conscious choice to transfer that authority, where as the submissive personality does not.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 9

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 7:39:24 AM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

Anyway, maybe the bastard will now publish the whole thing for us instead of just tossing us an excerpt.

LOL... maybe today I can find some time to get posted. Last couple of months have been really busy for me. I might be able to take a long lunch today and get to it, no promises though.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 10

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 7:55:13 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
I think the real crux in the debate over the difference between a sub and a slave really comes down to the degree of authority transferred. Among subs, the degree of authority varies anywhere from just bedroom play / sex to life in the home, to control of the check book. Every couple has to define where that "degree of transferr" is, and its one of those things where there is no right or wrong answer, just what is right for them.

I get you there, and I know YOUR perspective is sound...but this is what leads people to think slaves are BETTER or MORE than subs (or think that slaves think they are), or that subs should somehow PROGRESS into slaves. If it's just a matter of "degree" then you can just change the thermostat and things go where you want.

quote:

One of the things that sets a Submissive (proper noun) in this lifestyle apart from someone who has a submissive (adjective) personality, is that the Submissive makes a conscious choice to transfer that authority, where as the submissive personality does not.

Gorgeously said, I only hope more people will listen to you since you're a dom than they do to me.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 11

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 8:12:30 AM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
I think the real crux in the debate over the difference between a sub and a slave really comes down to the degree of authority transferred. Among subs, the degree of authority varies anywhere from just bedroom play / sex to life in the home, to control of the check book. Every couple has to define where that "degree of transferr" is, and its one of those things where there is no right or wrong answer, just what is right for them.

I get you there, and I know YOUR perspective is sound...but this is what leads people to think slaves are BETTER or MORE than subs (or think that slaves think they are), or that subs should somehow PROGRESS into slaves. If it's just a matter of "degree" then you can just change the thermostat and things go where you want.

That's unfortunately true. Here's the thing people need to keep in mind, its only better if its what you need. Slaves, submissives, dominants, masters, its not about being "better", its about finding what suits you best. Whether a submissive (personality) is a Submissive (noun) or a slave is about what suits them best as an individual. The same is true with whether a dominant seeks a submissive or a slave, what suits them best?

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 12

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 8:17:12 AM

candystripper

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To my novice heart, submission means trust and protection and love and intimacy -- all flowing from the fact that she worships Him (not idolizes...that's a sin) and His pleasures, great or small, bring her joy. He in turn takes charge of Their lives and protects and loves and honors her.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 12/21/2005 8:18:39 AM >

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 13

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 8:24:06 AM

starshineowned

Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

...but this is what leads people to think slaves are BETTER or MORE than subs

Now you want to know what is funny about that? In the 9yrs mixed into all of this..the majority of quabbles that has arisen from that very statement has been started by those calling themselves submissives, and not the one's calling themselves slaves.

Funny how that goes

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 14

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 9:07:46 AM

watchersgirl

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Joined: 11/28/2005
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This isn't a definition, but an opinion I'd like to add. I believe that a submissive in a D/S relationship is not a weak or necessarily even a naturally submissive person outside that relationship. I'm a sub who resists authority in my RL and is very assertive and who loves to argue. :-) Submission, IMO, requires strength b/c the sub is voluntarily and deliberately relinquishing his/her Selfhood. He/she might be a lawyer, a parent, an auto mechanic, a librarian, whatever. He/she (as in my case) could well be a control freak in his/her professional life or other parts of his/her non-D/S life. But the sub has the trust in his/her top and in his/her own strength to make a conscious choice to surrender his/her control to another and leave his/her social and professional position behind in the service and pleasure and control of another person. It's not easy! It's not supposed to be--because it's a real gift that wouldn't be meaningful if it was easy. It can be scary as hell, yet feel like the safest place to be. The sub is opening up, revealing, and surrendering innermost parts of him/herself to another and choosing to let that other person use, hurt, humble, play with, humiliate and control the most vulnerable parts of ourselves (and I'm not talking about bodily parts!). The best tops I've been with demanded total respect, obedience, and abasement from me. *And* they also respected me and my strength in surrendering my Selfhood and offering my submission. I had a domme who, while I was on the floor licking the soles of her boots, would tell me how much she respected my strength in willingly going as low as she chose to take me, submitting to her power and control, and looking up at her and to her by choice when I could easily be facing her eye-to-eye.

_____________________________

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom."--William Blake

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes)"--Walt Whitman

(in reply to starshineowned)

Post #: 15

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 10:20:22 AM

KnightofMists

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Joined: 7/29/2005
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I consider the question of what is Dominance- Submission to be understood as considering them as two opposites on the same continuum. I see them as adjectives, meaning many of our demonstrated behaviors can be described as either dominant or submissive in nature. The nouns of these terms Dominant and Submissive would be individuals whose behaviors are distinctly more pronounced to be aligned towards one side of the spectrum over the other.

------------------Frequency
----------------------of
----------------Demonstrated
------------------Behaviors
-----------------------|---------------------------------
-----------------------|---------------------------------
----------------------x|x------------------------------
-------------------xxxx|xxxx---------------------------
-----------------xxxxxx|xxxxxxx----------------------
--------------xxxxxxxxx|xxxxxxxxxx--------------------
--------------xxxxxxxxx|xxxxxxxxxxx--------------------
----------------------------------------------------------
Dominance-------------------------------------Submission

The above diagram is a poor graphical representation of the bell curve. It represents the person who thru the course of their daily life does not demonstrate any more dominant behaviors than submissive behaviors. The Dominant person will see a shift of this curve to the right while the Submissive person we will see a shift of the curve to the left. From a pure mathematical consideration you could take any two curves representing the demonstrated behaviors of two people and establish the differences between the quantities of dominant/submissive behaviors of the two people. However, what we consider as particularly dominant behaviors and what we consider as submissive behaviors is a subjective opinion from person to person. Some particular behaviors could be universally accepted, however the actual number of such behaviors that could be accept as universal would be of such a minimal amount that they would be meaningless as a comparison between individuals. Since universal understanding and defining of what would be considered a dominant or a submissive behavior is impossible, we are therefore left to compare others relative to our selves and our own subjective opinions and priorities.

This leads me to my second point, since we are unable to determine any real universal understanding of what would be considered as demonstrated Behaviors of submission or dominance. We surely can’t come to an understanding of what are quality dominant/submissive behaviors demonstrated. Which behaviors are of a higher quality and/or importance is as subjective as determining which behaviors are dominant or submissive in the first place. My views on what are to be considered dominant/submissive behaviors and which ones are of the greatest importance or quality is only relative to me. We each have that right of self-determination and judgement. This right doesn’t make others necessarily better or worse in a universal sense, but it does make a person better or worse for me. Too often we transfer our subjective choices as value judgments upon others in a universal sense. This can only be destructive to community cohesiveness and not enhancing or reinforcing it.

ok took alittle editing to get the graphic readable

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 12/21/2005 10:39:25 AM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 16

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 10:43:35 AM

Phoenxx

Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

-- all flowing from the fact that she worships Him (not idolizes...that's a sin)

not if your not Christian... And a lot of people are not.

In my mind a submissive is one that has power, but wants to give it to another. They do it out of love and need. The love for a person, most times a Dominant. The need comes from bring who they are. Also point out that if she were submissive, she most likely wouldn't enjoy a relationship without some power transfer...
That’s my 2 cents....
Tony

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 17

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 10:55:58 AM

Chaingang

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Joined: 10/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
That's unfortunately true. Here's the thing people need to keep in mind, its only better if its what you need.

Cool.

But let's not pretend that there's no difference between a penny and a full dollar. Yeah, they're both money - the difference is in "how much?" And degrees matter, as when someone says "It's only 75 degrees outside..." versus "Wow, it's 120 degrees and it's killing me!"

The suggestion that there is some sort of equivalency between submission and slavery I think is very inaccurate. They might be points on a continuum, but I am personally interested in the end weighted heavily toward slavery and almost not at all interested in the lighter side of submission. I also think there may be a natural progression toward more complete slavery from a starting point of mere submission, and I would even allow that total slavery is a goal never fully attained just as the Holy Grail may never be attained but only striven for.

We know that people try out their relationships and at the earliest stages we may say that they are experimenting with the D/s aspects of the relationship between them. As things move forward we often hear that a woman has begged a man's collar - so she hasn't been his slave yet, but she wants to be. There may come a time when a man collars his slave and we must now consider their relationship to have deepened in meaning and degree for them both. On the other side of slavery there may be marriage, which may by some be considered an even more profound degree of slavery; whereas others sometimes come to trust a slave so much that they give her something akin to a "freewoman" status and allow her a degree of authority over certain matters, over other slaves, and perhaps even complete autonomy within their marriage. Of course, there is every possibility that the woman is never freed at all and maintained in the strictest slavery and that her marriage ring is just a sign of her deepest possible servitude.

But as Padriag has rightly pointed out some people might see themselves as bedroom submissives only. I don't want to be tedious about it, but that's just kinky sex within a very specific context, right? You can't compare that to someone attempting a 24/7 situation.

The degree of service matters - a lot.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 18

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 11:15:03 AM

Padriag

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Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

But as Padriag has rightly pointed out some people might see themselves as bedroom submissives only. I don't want to be tedious about it, but that's just kinky sex within a very specific context, right? You can't compare that to someone attempting a 24/7 situation.

But that's the problem... comparing them. We shouldn't be comparing them at all. If two people get together and all they want is submission in the bedroom and that's what they need... then that's what they need and that's alright. If another couple finds their fulfillment in a full time TPE relationship as master and slave, then that's what they need, and that's alright too. Comparing them is largely pointless because its not a question of which is "more" or "better" or the like... its only a matter of what is right for each couple.

BTW, the essay is now on the web under my domainname. I started another thread and the link to the essay can be found there. Enjoy.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 19

RE: What is Submissive? - 12/21/2005 11:20:20 AM

fastlane

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What is a submissive?

Ooooh, Oooooh, fastlane jumps up and waves his arms ( I finally know a jeapordy question )

Fastlane stands, looks into the camera and says "What is the opposite of a Dominant!"

_____________________________

Just because it hurts, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 20

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