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When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable?


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When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? - 11/16/2008 10:47:05 AM   
celticlord2112


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Status: offline 		I raised this question in MusicMystery's "well regulated" topic, and he suggested it merited its own topic.

So I throw the question out to one and all: At what point does it become right/prudent/proper to take up arms against the government and rebel?  Can any injustice by government be so reprehensible as to mandate the government's removal by force of arms?


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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 10:55:29 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		I would suggest any time a government misuses its powers, against the common good. Then rebellion is justified. Situations such as murder and blatant theft of the public purse, should be pursued if legal means don`t work. The problem arises though of when to act. I think this should be a last resort, when the majority, and a clear cut majority at that, feel the same way.

IE in the case of  Bush, the public were able to use the ballot box. In the case of Saddam, they were not, so rebellion would have been justified.

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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 11:03:27 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		CL,  when a population is so desparate and has no food- one can stand in the street and bang empty pots and pans.

The grid makes it clear.  The peon will SHUT UP.  (meaning you and I)   If the population rebels - the fed will send in troops. If US troops dont turn on the USA people, recip agreements are worked out to ship troops in.

We need to leave the UN.

But it is too late.   How about bankster reparations?  you know- for the banks collateral damage.

So what does it matter??  I mean contacting congress means nothing.  Writing the editor- that a problem too.  Unless your work encourages the papers views - the letter wont get published.

Lets charge the bank a non sufficient funds fee.

So ok- to protest in the streets...why???

The police at the summer 08 conventions, posed as protestors and went off on another group of cops.  meanwhile that group of cops had not been told of the tactic.  hmm-  that sounds military to me.

I boldly hope the guns are not taken away. I am serious.   The roving interior check points are chilling.

When you are about to die a bad death- that when the self throws himself on the pavement and sets buildings on fire.   

people wont protest- they are too interested in the TV set.

too soft.

anyhow-  the banks have collateral damage and need reparations for their suffering.

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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 11:14:17 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Early thoughts:

Never. It has to be done at the ballot box.

In the event 30% of people agree with you and 70% do not, then your rebellion is forcing the 70% to agree with your version of freedom. In the event 70% agree with you, then you should be fine at the ballot box.

And, the perceived stupidity of the 70% is not a reasonable justfication to force them to be free.

The short-term answer: accept the limitations of mankind, and do not expect your countrymen to render themselves beholden to your standards.

The long-term answer for those who believe there is a problem that needs solving: Liberalism. Only an educated population can govern themselves, and the goal of an educated population necessitates redistribution of wealth. It's not pretty for some; it's unpalatable for many: let's call it the lesser of two evils and a spot of short-term pain in exchange for long-term gain.

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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 11:15:32 AM   
dudd


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How about we get back to you when it does....Don`t call us,.....we`ll call you....



< Message edited by dudd -- 11/16/2008 11:16:16 AM >

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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 11:16:58 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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Status: offline 		Is it ever justifable?  Odd question, really, when one considers that our country (the US) would not even Exist if at some point it didn't become the only means to achieve the end.
 
I don't think it Needs to be "justified" per se.  I see having to justify something as saying that it needs excuses rather than having solid reasons.
 
When do I consider the point reached where reasons are vast enough and drastic enough to call for such a measure? 
 
When it becomes apparant that no other solution exists to curtail excesses, tyranny, and the trampling of basic human dignity and rights.  When the rights of a vocal few are weighted in favor of the rights of a silent many.  When the general public forgets that one individual's rights Stop where the next person's rights Begin.  When the choices offered for non-violent means of affecting change within the system become nothing but a choice between screwing myself this year or screwing myself next year.  When sufficient people acknowledge that it is the only solution that exists - so they aren't simply making martyers of themselves when they're summarily executed for treason.

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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 11:21:30 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Revolutions tend to eat their children and no, the Revolutionary war wasn't a revolution, it was a war of independence. France and Russia had revolutions, they over threw the socio-eonomic order, Americans took control of the socio-political order which is a huge difference.

To take up arms against a government one has to be desperate because as history shows, once the centre falls apart, there is no controling the results and you may very well end up with something worse and completely opposite to what you wanted.

I've absolutely no love for western capitalism but even I can see violent revolution, assuming one could get enough support, would be stupid. One has to change things peaceably.

I've nothing against civic disorder and peaceful direct action though, in fact I recommend it.

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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 11:23:09 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		As it applies to the US...only after every option, constitutional rule and regulation has been ignored and the majority of our citizens are in agreement.

Otherwise every nut or radical minority would feel empowered to take up arms.

Butch

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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 11:27:56 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Never. It has to be done at the ballot box.

In the event 30% of people agree with you and 70% do not, then your rebellion is forcing the 70% to agree with your version of freedom. In the event 70% agree with you, then you should be fine at the ballot box.

So the 30% are at the mercy of the 70%?

Do you allow for a tyranny of the majority?


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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 11:43:21 AM   
stella41b


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Status: offline 		I would look for the answers from Eastern European history, particularly 1956 in Poland and Hungary, 1968 in Prague, the Gdansk shipyard workers strike in 1970 and also the subsequent history and formation of the Polish Solidarity movement brought about by Lech Walesa, Aleksander Hall, Adam Michnik and Jacek Kuron.

Personally I feel that any time for rebellion or confrontation between state and government has passed thanks to the Prevention of Terrorism Acts because all it would take is a couple of phone calls for the government to declare a state of emergency and impose martial law.

Let's face it, any unofficial armed or confrontation against a state can now be seen as terrorism.

I don't believe that the ballot box is the answer either.

I would go along with what the Polish Solidarity movement achieved, through seeking solidarity with others in an underground movement marked with random strikes, demonstrations, and civil disobedience. However one needs a vehicle to be able to do this, such as the Church (which Solidarity used along with the workplace).

Another alternative is to look into the situation in Iran and recent history because if there was any country which sorely needs a revolution it has to be Iran.

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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 12:17:25 PM   
Darias


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From: midlands ireland
Status: offline 		my knowledge of American politics and history is limited at best so please feel free to correct any mistakes and know they are my mistakes and no one elses

to my knowledge the right to bare arms / arm bears .... was originally kept by America as an insurance clause .. to insure that should their own government ever abuse or  mistreat the populace as a whole .. that said populace would have the means to kick the government out . by force if necessary.  in fact to this day its the most popular argument against gun control given by the * hide in the woods with a cabin an anti tank missle launcher and 15 years worth of canned goods * crowd over THERE

at what point would said action be justifiable ? there really isnt any .. i supose it could be said that when your goverment rules over its people with terror fear propaganda and murder in the way of the movie * V for vendetta * ( the rebel part of my heart danced at the special effects of big ben blowing up ... sorry to all my british friends its genetic )

but when the situation is ... we`ll say ... just off the top of my head ... a president you dont like , a congress you dont like , whos core beliefs you dont agree with ... then no id say it isnt justifiable . vote in 4 years .. and make sure your mates do ... join the republican parties campagn squad ...

opression of the people is one thing .... the  people electing a government you dont agree with is entirely another

Darias


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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 12:24:16 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Armed struggle is justifiable at any time when the government does not honor my God given rights.

This is true for any time, for any size of population (an armed revolution of one is justifiable, therefore).

The majority does not have the right to deny me MY rights.  No matter what they may think, what excuses, justifications or rationalizations they may expound, propose or believe.

I allow any government the leeway to make decisions which may curtail my rights, in the interests of a better society, but at the end of the day, that "leeway" is conditional, revocable, and temporary.

The government has no rights.  "Society" has no rights.  Only individuals have rights.

Firm


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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 12:31:07 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

So the 30% are at the mercy of the 70%?

Do you allow for a tyranny of the majority?



.......and is the other way round any better? If 70% of the population don't have the right to dictate to the remaining 30%, then how is it any more ethical for 30% of the population to dictate to the remaining 70%?

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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 12:32:19 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Armed struggle is justifiable at any time when the government does not honor my God given rights.



..in the interests of clarity, what do you mean by 'God-given rights'?

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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 12:33:39 PM   
Darias


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Armed struggle is justifiable at any time when the government does not honor my God given rights.



..in the interests of clarity, what do you mean by 'God-given rights'?


you had to ask didnt ya


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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 12:35:41 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darias

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Armed struggle is justifiable at any time when the government does not honor my God given rights.



..in the interests of clarity, what do you mean by 'God-given rights'?


you had to ask didnt ya



...yup...because, essentially, it goes to justification of a violent act. Now, i'm absolutely not saying that violence is never justified, but i want to see that justification.

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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 12:37:35 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Well luckily the Constitution supports God-given rights.

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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 12:38:27 PM   
tweedydaddy


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Status: offline 		The two biggest losses to the British Empire, those of America and Ireland initially came about through armed insurrection, so I suppose it might be seen as a good thing. I think to lose one colony might be seen as understandable, but to lose both looks like carelesness. Only We and the Romans know what it's like.

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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 12:41:09 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Well luckily the Constitution supports God-given rights.


.....well what is a 'God-given right'? Name three of them. Then explain how God gave them.

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RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justi... - 11/16/2008 12:41:46 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR:

Armed struggle is justifiable at any time when the government does not honor my God given rights.



Like the God given rights of the 9/11 hijackers?

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