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slvemike4u -> Michael Collins (11/16/2008 2:43:14 PM)

Seems I set off a real argument on CL's rebellion thread when I characterised Collins and the IRA as a terrorist organisation.Now I in no way intended to link either to what passes as a terrorist organisation by today's standards,I don't believe the label as applied at the time is off.Posters responded with comparisons to our own American Revolution...that doesn't work, though patriots certainly at times behaved as terrorist's America raised an army and in gaining her Independence fought set piece battles with the King's armies.The IRA on the other hand never fielded an army never sought a battle and never sought to take and hold strategic positions.Rather they fought a war of terror,now I want to be careful I intend no slander of Collin's or  Irelands reputation....My maternal grandfather was a member of the IRA during the subsequent civil war.But to deny ,that measured in their own times , Collins operated a terrorist organisation is to deny fact.Hell a case could be made that the IRA is the precursor, the very model of a sucessful terrorist campaign. Collins flying collums the father of todays terrorist cells,operating independantly of and without coordination or knowledge of each other.The difference of course,and one readily acknowledged and even stressed by me is one of civilian casulties.Collins and the IRA sough to avoid those as much as posiible ,whereas todays models seek to maximise as much as possible.



philosophy -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 2:58:58 PM)

..there's a semantic problem here.......however i think i see a way out. Been doing some research into the etymology of the term 'terrorist' and this site came up.

http://www.terrorism-research.com/

...lots of useful data here, but one page caught my eye......

http://www.terrorism-research.com/insurgency/

"Guerilla warfare and insurgencies are often assumed to be synonymous with terrorism. One reason for this is that insurgencies and terrorism often have similar goals. However, if we examine insurgency and guerilla warfare, specific differences emerge.

A key difference is that an insurgency is a movement - a political effort with a specific aim. This sets it apart from both guerilla warfare and terrorism, as they are both methods available to pursue the goals of the political movement."

(my italics)

..Michael Collins had a political goal. Therefore he was an insurgent not a terrorist, according to the best definitions i can find.



slvemike4u -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 3:16:18 PM)

Well Philo,having no interest in arguing semantics with you (your way to clever...lol) I can live with that.My use of the word when applying it to Collins bore ,in my mind at least,little resemblance to what passes as terrorism today.
A popular insurgency works for me ,though there are again different definitions when one would compare what Collins ran to today's insurgency in Iraq for instance.I am sure some would have a problem with that comparison too.To my way of thinking,use of the word ,whether it be terrorist or insurgent,is tempered by knowledge of the period in which I'm referring to and the historical facts...not the visceral reaction to today's definition.I have already sent off an apology to Darias....if my use of a word so inflammatory insulted anyone  else I apologise and would point out once again I consider the man an Irish Patriot.



Politesub53 -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 3:20:38 PM)

Phil, to spin your argument on its head, Bin Laden has a political goal.




slvemike4u -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 3:24:10 PM)

Oh boy,and now a whole can of worms is open.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 3:24:13 PM)

quote:

Seems I set off a real argument on CL's rebellion thread when I characterised Collins and the IRA as a terrorist organisation.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

There is little doubt that, in parts of the Middle East, the al-Qaida and Hamas suicide bombers are martyrs to a cause, and those who send them forth patriots and saintly followers of Allah (note, I am being neither sarcastic nor facetious when I say this; that we perceive these same individuals far less favorably does not alter the perceptions of others elsewhere).

What must be fairly stated, mike, is that "terrorist", as we see the term used today, is a perjorative--good men are not terrorists, and terrorists are not good men.

Moreover, terrorism is in the eyes of the beholder:

quote:

The United States Department of Defense defines terrorism as “the calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.”

By this definition, a great many people arguably qualify as "terrorists"--including, as has been said, our own Founding Fathers as well as the esteemed Michael Collins.

Yet we do not call George Washington a "terrorist"--certainly I do not.  Why is this? Because George Washington helped bring this country into existence.

Similarly, Michael Collins did much to bring about the modern nation of Ireland.  Thus many do not count Michael Collins as a "terrorist".



Darias -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 3:25:57 PM)

* snickers *

thats just mean Polite

Mike i think i understand better what it is you were originally trying to say .. sorry for the time lag responding to the mails i have male profiles blocked due to ... welll lets just say mail in reguards to my bisexual status ...  the thing that surprises me the most is that many around these parts blame collins for the country being split 26/6 counties . they hardly seem to be able to grasp that at the time getting 26 counties out of british rule without more bloodshed was damned near a miricle .. sure it woulda been nice to avoid the degades of the troubles but those same troubles probably would have existed had collins managed to get all 32 counties in the treaty . the difference is instead of republicans trying to get loyalists to leave you would have had loyalists trying to get british rule back



slvemike4u -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 3:34:21 PM)

And yet CL I got into this whole mix-up by stating that Collins headed up a terrorist organisation.Certainly didn't mean to equate it with Al-qaeda or Hamas...but in both tactics and methods it can be argued the IRA was the preeminent ,most successful terrorist org.of its time.
In addition I'm not sure Washington meets the criteria,though he would certainly qualify as a traitor...Washington headed an army that though they avoided battle till they found themselves in favorable situations,they eventually stood and fought,not to mention taking of and exchanging of prisoners.Plus Washington's army was modeled along military lines.traitor to the king yes....terrorist as applies to Washington ...no I don't see that ftting.



Lorr47 -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 3:46:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And yet CL I got into this whole mix-up by stating that Collins headed up a terrorist organisation.Certainly didn't mean to equate it with Al-qaeda or Hamas...but in both tactics and methods it can be argued the IRA was the preeminent ,most successful terrorist org.of its time.
In addition I'm not sure Washington meets the criteria,though he would certainly qualify as a traitor...Washington headed an army that though they avoided battle till they found themselves in favorable situations,they eventually stood and fought,not to mention taking of and exchanging of prisoners.Plus Washington's army was modeled along military lines.traitor to the king yes....terrorist as applies to Washington ...no I don't see that ftting.


You should not have apologized.  You are entitled to your opinion.



slvemike4u -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 3:54:26 PM)

And Lorr others are entitled to their sensitivities,given the present connotation of the word "terrorist" I thought an apology and an explanation was called for.Hence my apology...qualified ,but an apology all the same.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 4:02:12 PM)

quote:

but in both tactics and methods it can be argued the IRA was the preeminent ,most successful terrorist org.of its time.

It can be.  And while my forebears are more Scots than Irish, I have enough Hibernian heritage to hold Michael Collins in rather high regard, and so I would take issue with the characterization that he was a terrorist.

To use a word that draws a parallel between Michael Collins and the likes of Osama bin Laden, Abu Nidal, Yasser Arafat, and the Black September terrorists of Munich infamy strikes me as being at best careless with the language.



Politesub53 -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 4:05:15 PM)

Well i think we can all agree that the modern connotation of the word terrorist, is not the same as we would view either Micheal Collins, or George Washington. That said Collins did use many tactics that have been copied by terrorist groups since. incidentally the british made use of similar tactics in WW2 via the S.O.E

Darias, you are spot on, Collins got the best possible deal on the 26 counties. There was no way the well armed and well manned Ulster Volunteers would have accepted anything more.



rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 4:06:27 PM)

I had a great uncle executed by the British. He was IRA at the beginning. just saying :) 



slvemike4u -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 4:37:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

but in both tactics and methods it can be argued the IRA was the preeminent ,most successful terrorist org.of its time.

It can be.  And while my forebears are more Scots than Irish, I have enough Hibernian heritage to hold Michael Collins in rather high regard, and so I would take issue with the characterization that he was a terrorist.

To use a word that draws a parallel between Michael Collins and the likes of Osama bin Laden, Abu Nidal, Yasser Arafat, and the Black September terrorists of Munich infamy strikes me as being at best careless with the language.

Hence my apology for not taking care to draw attention to the difference's between Collins and today's reprehensible example's.While I'm at it I will further apologise for accusing Washington of being a "traitor" while he was certainl;y guilty of treason (as were all the founding fathers)and would have swung from the gallows had England prevailed...traitor is a dirty word.Benedict Arnold was a traitor..washungton was in open rebellion.Posting while watching football and drinking Jack's is not often a smart move.



Vendaval -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 4:43:16 PM)

I think that much of the definition of such combatants depends on one's point of view, personal loyalties, family history and whether or not the fighting directly influences your life, family, property, business, etc.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 5:07:22 PM)

quote:

Posting while watching football and drinking Jack's is not often a smart move.

We really do need to work on your choice of spirits.....[8D]



slvemike4u -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 5:13:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Posting while watching football and drinking Jack's is not often a smart move.

We really do need to work on your choice of spirits.....[8D]

And yet it would seem my choice of spirits works as advertised....[8|]



celticlord2112 -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 5:16:09 PM)

Perhaps if you chose something from the Highlands instead of Appalachia?



slvemike4u -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 5:20:35 PM)

Now CL would you not be the first to defend my inalienable right to choose my own form of libation?



celticlord2112 -> RE: Michael Collins (11/16/2008 5:25:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Now CL would you not be the first to defend my inalienable right to choose my own form of libation?

I may not agree with what you drink, but I shall defend to the last drop your right to drink it!
(with apologies to The Friends of Voltaire)



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