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Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 9:10:35 AM   
UncleNasty


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I came across this article this morning and found it an interesting perspective.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article7313.html 

Beyond any accuracy or legitimacy in the article itself I was particularly fond of this quote contained in it:

"The definition of ignorance is when we don't know enough to know how much we don't know. Why does humanity, in its arrogance, keep taking decisions which are calculated to keep us ignorant of our potential? Why does humanity keep insisting that the most important yardstick of measurement of the quality of life on earth is our “material standard” of living?"

It has been my belief for some time that most of us simply don't know enough about our monetary system, the nature of the stuff we call money, who creates it, who controls it, etc., to be able to make truly informed decisions about it. That leaves us in a largely powerless position.

I've been a student of the issue off and on for several years. When time allows I continue my studies. I probably have enough information and knowledge to be, as they say, dangerous. I'm far from having the answers. And still I don't know what I don't know.

Uncle Nasty
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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 9:17:36 AM   
Dnomyar


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Salt was money at one time.

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 9:22:01 AM   
UncleNasty


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Yep, as were other spices, various grains, even chunks of iron ore.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 9:44:43 AM   
awmslave


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According to Safe Money Report editor Larry Edelson calculations:  -- if 100% of public and private sector debt is monetized, "the official government price of gold would have to be raised to about $53,000 per ounce;"

-- at 50% monitization, gold would be $26,500 an ounce;

-- at 20%, it would be $10,600 an ounce; and

-- at 10%, it would be $5300 an ounce. Therefore the US debt will never be paid and there will be no "gold standard". So, how to get rid of worthless paper from the World markets is a problem. Maybe just to short-circuit all banking-connected computers or launch a deadly computer virus that destroes all the data. Hopefully They will not decide to launch WW3.

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 10:40:52 AM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

Hopefully They will not decide to launch WW3.


The parasites certainly don't want to kill off their host. But if they ever find most of us useless to them... look out!

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 11:27:20 AM   
Honsoku


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The article is a load of crap for several reasons. Beware of articles selling books

I do agree that most people do not understand money nor economics to the point that they could make informed decisions nor hold informed opinions. I disagree with the quote though. By the time we truly know where the gaps in our knowledge lie, we are well beyond ignorance and approaching expertise. Ignorance is when we don't know what we do know.

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 11:30:29 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku

Ignorance is when we don't know what we do know.


I think you and UncleNasty are in agreement of sorts, that knowledge is being aware of your ignorance.

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 12:42:05 PM   
UncleNasty


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In the modern world of internet information, reviewing or even impeaching sources is prudent. Admittedly I've not done that with the marketoracle site. However, the similar information provided by awmslave through Larry Edelson of Safe money, with differeing numbers, may be an indication of some levels of trustworthiness.

That the article is associated with the selling of a book I don't consider to undermine it completely, and potentially not at all. If taken to the extreme that line would lead us to not trusting any sources of news or information that had any marketing involved at all.

With so much information floating about it gets harder and harder to know which soources are accurate and trustworthy. I expect with enough effort I could find digital pictures of me butt f*cking Captain Kangaroo on the net somewhere, LOL.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 1:40:06 PM   
DomKen


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A basic guide to detecting bullshit on the internet. Does the author claim secret knowledge unknown to all the world but which he will impart to you for a price? If so it is de jure bullshit. This page falls in that category.

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 2:47:09 PM   
Termyn8or


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Just about doesn't matter if they want money for the knowledge, and I happen to know that there is certain information worth paying for, but that would be the exception.

I doubt that anyone posting here hopes to make any money or gain from it, but when someone goes to the trouble to build a website it is usually not just a hobby. In other words, just who is it that has anything to gain by disseminating this information ?

I guess calling that backward thinking is not quite right, perhaps it would be better termed reverse thinking. Everything has a motive, action, and result. Given enough information about the action and results, I believe the motive can be determined at least some of the time.

I cannot argue that without credit, gold would not be alot higher. I does seem logical. This is a credit based economic system, and the main drawback other than the debt load as it is called, is that the creditors gain quite a bit of power over the debtors.

That is where we are at.

T

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 2:48:47 PM   
pahunkboy


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my nieghbor who is otherwise bright was surprised when I told her what the dollar is backed by. that it stopped in 1971.   she also is afaid of XXX bank going bankrupt as she thought her house would be taken. I said they cant take you house if you are curent on the payment.

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 3:54:50 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

With so much information floating about it gets harder and harder to know which soources are accurate and trustworthy. I expect with enough effort I could find digital pictures of me butt f*cking Captain Kangaroo on the net somewhere, LOL.

Uncle Nasty


And ya know... some of us would be willing to pay to see such. 

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 4:17:43 PM   
UncleNasty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

my nieghbor who is otherwise bright was surprised when I told her what the dollar is backed by. that it stopped in 1971.   she also is afaid of XXX bank going bankrupt as she thought her house would be taken. I said they cant take you house if you are curent on the payment.


That isn't true. Anytime they want to take your house they pretty much can, and do. it is referred to as "manufactured default" and "mortgage servicing fraud."

The Plaintiffs in foreclosure have, in comparison to the home owner, unlimited resources and are already familiar with the "rules of the scam." Additionally, most attorneys are not knowledgeable about the proper and legitimate defenses to any foreclosure proceeding, much less and illegal and fraudulent one.

The home owner rarely has much of a chance.

So most certainly people current on their payments can, and do, still have their homes foreclosed on.

But it seems I'm hijacking my own thread, LOL.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 4:20:23 PM   
UncleNasty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

With so much information floating about it gets harder and harder to know which soources are accurate and trustworthy. I expect with enough effort I could find digital pictures of me butt f*cking Captain Kangaroo on the net somewhere, LOL.

Uncle Nasty


And ya know... some of us would be willing to pay to see such. 


If I find them I'll let you know. My question is whether or not it would be considered beastial, and what the laws in my state are regarding such.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 6:29:27 PM   
Termyn8or


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"Anytime they want to take your house they pretty much can"

Absolutely correct UN. The provision for that in law is in the Uniform Commercial Code and is called Option To Accelerate At Will. Actually I thought that was added in 1991, but found out later that it had been around for alot longer.

T

edited to add, I personally read the code in the UCC, there is no defense whatsoever.

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 11/17/2008 6:31:13 PM >

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/17/2008 11:16:01 PM   
Honsoku


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quote:

However, the similar information provided by awmslave through Larry Edelson of Safe money, with differeing numbers, may be an indication of some levels of trustworthiness.


Or it is an indication of several people who have some level of untrustworthiness

Problem 1: From the article: "(It should be remembered that a US Dollar Bill is a promissory note issued by the US Federal Reserve. It is therefore a liquid liability)" A promise of what? There is no asset promised by the U.S. Federal Reserve in exchange for a dollar. A liability is a claim to an asset. Therefore the dollar is not a liquid liability. This invalidates a large chunk of his premise.

Problem 2: All circulating money (by the M3 standard) will never be totally covered by a gold standard. The total amount of the money supply isn't fixed. M3 (the most liberal approximation of the money supply) is about 10 trillion dollars, by comparison M0 (physical currency) is only around 800 billion. That means that for every dollar of hard currency there are about 10 'phantom' dollars existing as various forms of credit. The freeze up of the credit market takes on a whole new perspective, doesn't it? The government can only totally control the amount of money printed, so that would quite likely become all that would be covered by a gold standard, which would equate to M0 (~800 billion) or M1 (~1.5 trillion) if they were feeling generous. This would give a price per ounce of ~$2,800 for M0 and ~$5,000 for M1, with 100% coverage (which isn't going to happen).

Problem 3: It assumes that the gold reserves are fixed. They aren't. There is about 30,000 tonnes of gold in official holding and an estimated 145,000 tonnes have been mined. At current prices that would roughly be 3.5 trillion dollars worth ($737 an ounce, the price at the 17th's close). Just as they can sell gold, they can buy it as well.

Problem 4: It assumes the supply of gold is fixed. Do you think that if gold shot up to $10,000
an ounce that the amount of gold on the market would stay constant? Or would there be a spike in gold mining operations?

Would gold prices go up if the U.S. instituted a gold standard? Probably. Would you see the outrageous increases in gold prices that these people claim? Almost certainly not.

< Message edited by Honsoku -- 11/17/2008 11:19:54 PM >

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/18/2008 9:00:01 AM   
UncleNasty


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All good points Honsoku. Especially the first one, which is un-numbered.

You are obviously knowledgeable about this issue, and beyond most Americans. I hope you spread your knowledge to others liberally. Accurate, inaccurate, right or wrong I'm probably not qualified to have an opinion on. And in most ways that doesn't even matter. Just getting the issue in peoples minds, or the lephant in the room discussed at all, is perhaps as important.

I was digging deeper into this issue myself but have been distracted in the past year by a motorcycle accident, injuries, continuing health care (surgery this Friday), loss of income, and a resulting foreclosure suit. The foreclosure has gotten most of my energy, LOL. I've fought them off for a year, against all odds, and am preparing to file suit in Federal District Court. The odds of a pro se litigant even finding the information I've uncovered are very low. In filing suit with the charges I have evidence to substantiate the odds or even longer. I give it 50-50 whether I'll prevail or not. Our judiciary is slow to respond to new facts, procedures, etc. This is worse in the lower courts and I'm hoping to find more informed minds in the Federal Courts.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/18/2008 9:41:16 AM   
Termyn8or


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Hons (et al of course), you seem to have inadvertently touched on the problem with buying silver. With the economy slowing to the rate it has, demand has not reached the levels predicted a couple of years ago. When it gets like this two factors screw it up. The speculators dump it and they have a chance to open up more mines.

Back to the subject though. I think the subject of any major changes in how money is issued etc. are almost a moot point. We are pretty much stuck with this system.

I asked this question in another thread concerning finances and gold and such. Does anyone know of any country where the money is actually backed by gold, or silver for that matter ? I can't think of one but I don't know. Right now I can't really think of a valid search string to use, say in Google to find out. I'll have to give that some thought.

I would tend to think that if any, there are very few, and those may be very tiny economies, island nations and the like. I don't think any major ecomony in the world actually backs it's currency with gold, but I could be wrong.

But being few and far between would seem to indicate that the gold standard is overrated. I know I have mentioned that if you put a million dollars in the bank and find it is only worth half that when you take it out, that you have been ripped off. But similarly, what if you had actual gold ? What if when you took your gold out and found it was worth only half what it was when you put it in ? It could happen.

Even when salt was used as money, it's value could fluctuate, who is there to say it can't. People also used to eat it and use it as a preservative as well as a few other things, making it a true commodity. That's one way to put it anyway. However if employees say that they simply need more salt or they can't work there, they would have to get a raise or move on to another job where they get more salt. Intrincisally this has to affect the value of salt. Even butchers, bakers and candlestick makers could decide to charge a few more grains for their goods.

So the point is, anything can change value. There are a plethora of factors that can cause this. Have more kids ? Need more food and diapers, or loincloths or whatever they had. Spend more salt. You a baker ? Well either you have to expand your business and work more or you have to charge a few more grains or whatever for each loaf of bread. These things are inevitable.

So since the value of anything will never be static, there is no sense in pretending. The solution is not to abolish the fed or any of that crap. society can't take that, plain and simple, the solution is to figure out how to manage this system more effectively.

The root of that problem is that they have created a very unpredictable system, there are simply too many variables. If this is assumed correct then the most logical solution seems to be to isolate or otherwise nullify some of these variables, or at least their effect.

To abolish the fed, something similar in function would have to take it's place. It would be ½ of one, six of another. Some "experts" actually say the fed should be nationalized, which will merely cause congress to have more direct control. We know how congress is, in fact I think even congress knows how congress is. So how valid of a solution is that ?

Change can only be so drastic. The base problem that caused this bunch of crap was not the direct result of having a fiat currency nor the issuance of credit in and of itself. It was the excessive use of credit. This should not have been allowed to happen. So they might have to make it happen by force of law, how else would they do it ?

That's where we are at. Things need to be rethought, just rethought by the right people this time around.

T

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/18/2008 9:58:46 AM   
UncleNasty


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Term, it is my understanding that we borrow from the Fed, and end up paying interest as well as principal. Could we not stay with fiat currency issued directly by treasury and eliminate the interest? Many of the same issues and problems (inflation for one) present in the current system could/would still occur but it seems eliminating the compound interest alone would reduce the debt considerably.

Honsoku, haven't they stopped reporting one of "M's" in the past few years? M2 perhaps? In any case my memory is that they no longer report the new currency being created and dumped into the economy.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Gold at $14,000 an oz. - 11/18/2008 10:46:08 AM   
Honsoku


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

Term, it is my understanding that we borrow from the Fed, and end up paying interest as well as principal. Could we not stay with fiat currency issued directly by treasury and eliminate the interest? Many of the same issues and problems (inflation for one) present in the current system could/would still occur but it seems eliminating the compound interest alone would reduce the debt considerably.


Who's we? The U.S. government or the U.S. as a whole? The U.S. government doesn't borrow from the fed (generally). When the government borrows money they issue bonds and bills. The purpose of the interest rate is to control the money supply, by controlling the cost of borrowing for banks.

quote:

Honsoku, haven't they stopped reporting one of "M's" in the past few years? M2 perhaps? In any case my memory is that they no longer report the new currency being created and dumped into the economy.

Uncle Nasty


The Fed stopped reporting M3 in 2005. However, private firms still collect data and compile M3 figures.



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