back to Somalia?

back to Somalia? (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> back to Somalia? (11/17/2008 6:08:25 PM)
What with the Saudi oil tanker being seized by Somali pirates 450 nautical miles off the Kenyan coast - in supposedly safe waters that the pirates appear to have moved to in order to evade our allied naval forces - and the Ethiopian army facing humiliation in its invasion of the country (an invasion which is pretty much obviously an invasion by proxy on behalf of the west) in an effort to suppress the warlords apparently holding sway there; Are we destined not for Iran but for Somalia, a failed state where AQ could easily set up store (and probably already have and for a good long time) in our "war on terror"? How does Somalia as it is differ from Afghanistan in this respect? Will we exchange Iraq for Somalia, especially in a poor economic climate with a new President in the US and with the experience of the last time still so horrendously familiar? And how is it that this happens to be a Saudi tanker, hijacked well out of the danger area off the Kenyan coast, carrying oil to the US? Of all the ships in all the sea..... Are we being played yet again by those whose interests lie in the humiliation and bankruptcy of the west in the hope of dragging us into another quagmire just as it seemed we might step out of one in Iraq? E

popeye1250 -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/17/2008 10:29:21 PM)
LE, I hope we don't get involved there. Anytime they do this we should cluster bomb any area that we suspect al qeada might be and kill as many as we can. Another ship taken? Another hundred cluster bombs!

meatcleaver -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/17/2008 10:48:57 PM)
In relation to another thread on CM, the pirates are only fighting their oppression. Somalia is a basket case and they don't have oil so nothing will be done even if something could be done. The most that will happen is that there will be more multi-national naval patrols in the area.

RCdc -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 12:04:45 AM)
Piracy has been happening for eons with all kinds of vessels. They are usually paid off or on some occasions 'executed'. The only reason this is such a story ow, is because of the ship. That is the only thing that makes this more newsworthy than other times. It's not new and it isn't a conspiracy. the.dark.

tweedydaddy -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 3:07:53 AM)
Cluster bombs to deal with pirates on a 2 million barrel oil tanker? That makes sense. Al Quaeda have as much to do with piracy as Sadaam had to do with 911. You were attacked on that dreadful day by Saudi citizens, and did fuck all about it, except make sure that the only people allowed to fly home were from Saudi arabia. If the news crews hadn't displayed what happened to the black hawk helicopter crews and swayed popular opinion, your marines and airborn rangers would have cleared Somalia up years ago, Farah Idid's son was actually in college in the US when his people were ambushing your troops. You have the incredible capacity for not knowing who your enemies are and for alienating your friends. For the record, and as someone who has seen action in areas after cluster bombs have been used, they are a load of shite and are only dangerous after the event, and then usually only aginst the poor bastards who have to make a life in what is then an explosive graveyard. When I fight an enemy, I want to kill HIM there and then and not kids years after the fighting stops. Piracy is not terrorism it's not about freedom, it's strictly business. Blackbeard and Henry Morgan were nothing to do with Al Qaeda either...

RealityLicks -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 3:21:50 AM)
I don't usually agree with this tweedydaddy bloke. I deplore the breakdown of law and order in Somalia as much as the next soft western parasite but I can't help wondering why the audacity of various pirates of the past is so widely admired while this modern version is condemned. Spot the difference, join the dots. Why can't I feel any concern for some billionaire being kidnapped along with his superyacht? Why don't I care that the oil companies are getting targetted? They seldom harm the crews of these vessels, just the money. Call it reparations.

pahunkboy -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 4:47:18 AM)
100 million $ is a small amount. too bad bernacki and paulsen isnt on thar ship. just imagine the reply if alan greenspan was on that ship. ...it will be interesing what form of ransom they demand. paper of metals. stay tuned.

SilverMark -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 5:16:33 AM)
The Saudis own the ship....perhaps they could find a few folks of their own to deal with the issue?... Let's see what they are willing to do to get the ship and oil back.

calamitysandra -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 8:45:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 LE, I hope we don't get involved there. Anytime they do this we should cluster bomb any area that we suspect al qeada might be and kill as many as we can. Another ship taken? Another hundred cluster bombs! As long as there are guys like you, terrorist organisations will have no problem finding new recruits. What an exceedingly brilliant plan.[8\|]

Politesub53 -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 10:07:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen and the Ethiopian army facing humiliation in its invasion of the country (an invasion which is pretty much obviously an invasion by proxy on behalf of the west) in an effort to suppress the warlords apparently holding sway there; The above isnt quite accurate Lady E. Firstly, the invasion wasnt to suppress the warlords. That had already been done by the Union of Islamic Courts. The only western backing for Ethiopia came from America, while Europe wanted dialogue. Kenya shares a border with Somalia, so I am unsure how safe the tanker was. The Navy is also hampered by having to operate under maritime laws. I think you are right about Al Qaida being able to gain support from the current crisis, but they are running out of places to operate from. Lest we forget, they have been unable to topple a single Islamic nation, which was their hope after 9/11.

popeye1250 -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 12:01:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: calamitysandra quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 LE, I hope we don't get involved there. Anytime they do this we should cluster bomb any area that we suspect al qeada might be and kill as many as we can. Another ship taken? Another hundred cluster bombs! As long as there are guys like you, terrorist organisations will have no problem finding new recruits. What an exceedingly brilliant plan.[8\|] Calamity, I don't want to be "friends" with al qeada or Somalia. Fuck 'em!

calamitysandra -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 12:09:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: calamitysandra quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 LE, I hope we don't get involved there. Anytime they do this we should cluster bomb any area that we suspect al qeada might be and kill as many as we can. Another ship taken? Another hundred cluster bombs! As long as there are guys like you, terrorist organisations will have no problem finding new recruits. What an exceedingly brilliant plan.[8\|] Calamity, I don't want to be "friends" with al qeada or Somalia. Fuck 'em! Nobody told you you should be friends with them, but using a tactic which is bound to produce heaps of civilian victims is decidedly NOT in your own best interest.

xBullx -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 1:48:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: calamitysandra quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 LE, I hope we don't get involved there. Anytime they do this we should cluster bomb any area that we suspect al qeada might be and kill as many as we can. Another ship taken? Another hundred cluster bombs! As long as there are guys like you, terrorist organisations will have no problem finding new recruits. What an exceedingly brilliant plan.[8\|] If they're finding recruits apparently we aren't killing them fast enough.... It seems these third world countries cling to the concept of rule by fear so let's scare the shit right out of them

slaveboyforyou -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 1:59:13 PM)
I am no expert on merchant shipping by any means. But it seems easy to me, merchant mariners should be armed. Merchant ships should have the capability to repel pirate attacks. We all should put our suspicions aside and allow merchant ships to do that. Somali pirates and pirates in general would think twice about attacking a ship armed to the teeth.

LadyEllen -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 2:07:28 PM)
There was a captain on the news tonight SBFY who had been hijacked by pirates in the South China Sea. His opinion was that arming the crew would only make things worse. Interestingly in his experience he also reckoned that this could well not be a pirate job since it would have required specialist assistance to hijack a ship like this so far off the coast. E

RealityLicks -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 3:09:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Interestingly in his experience he also reckoned that this could well not be a pirate job since it would have required specialist assistance to hijack a ship like this so far off the coast. Why? There are thousands of Somali seamen crewing all sorts of shipping worldwide. I've visited a retired Somali seafarer's community in Cardiff dating back to the 19th cent. and know there are similar ones in London and elsewhere. Piracy in the Gulf of Aden goes back to well before the British invasion of the area. All of which points to ample human resource to mount such an operation locally - even before you factor in the huge profits involved, to pay for those skills. Now factor in the element of surprise: the ship's master thought he was in safe waters and it's easily achievable without any other motive than that of any business - profit. These people are demanding money, not fighting for a religio-political cause. I don't see any shadowy conspiracy being involved here.

meatcleaver -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 3:22:48 PM)
Since merchant ships are unarmed and the pirates are armed to the teeth and with modern GPS equipement, you don't need to be an expert seaman. Piracy has always been common place where there has been no rule of law. Like any other area in life, if there is no authority, thugs and gangsters fill the vacuum.

philosophy -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 3:27:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx If they're finding recruits apparently we aren't killing them fast enough.... .......you could drop a nuke and it still wont be fast enough, if the only solution you can see is escalating violence. Pop quiz.......what stopped the violence in Ulster? An escalation of violence or negotiation? What actually works?

RCdc -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/18/2008 3:31:19 PM)
There are currently over 10 vessels being held to ransom by somali pirates with over 250 people being captive.One of them being a vessel carrying tanks. There have been three attacks in the last week alone. It's no conspiracy. It's just a poor news week and something else for people to get all paranoid about. the.dark.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: back to Somalia? (11/19/2008 12:23:10 AM)
quote: There was a captain on the news tonight SBFY who had been hijacked by pirates in the South China Sea. His opinion was that arming the crew would only make things worse. Interestingly in his experience he also reckoned that this could well not be a pirate job since it would have required specialist assistance to hijack a ship like this so far off the coast. I don't doubt that LE. I have seen programs about merchant mariners. My uncle was one after he got out of the Navy in the 60's. It's a lot different now a days. A lot of the seamen aboard those ships are from 3rd world countries, and they don't pay them much. Most of the officers are westerners. The Captain is probably scared of mutiny. I can't believe the crew would be worse off if they were armed. Pirates have been known to kill entire crews for the cargo. I don't know about you, but I would feel better with access to weapons out at sea. The Somali pirates are armed with Kalashnikovs and RPG's. I imagine they'd think twice when they were at the receiving end of a few bursts from a machine gun mounted on the deck. Like any thief, I would be looking for easy targets. If you notice, naval vessels don't get attacked by these fellows. It would be cheap, and it's not hard to teach someone to operate a firearm.

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