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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/19/2008 4:07:24 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darias

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks


The real problem of course, is that the whole issue of trafficked sex slaves is over-hyped.  They make up a tiny proportion of UK sex workers, so action in that area will only have a very limited effect.  This isn't an attack on prostitution as a whole, which was and remains perfectly legal in the UK, contrary to many posters' ideas. 




What What What!!!!

ok how did I  NOT know that in college.....

*thinks i need another vacation in london to investigate this whole legal prostitution thing further *

My apoligies for any incorrect statements i made above then... it seems my knowledge of UK law is on par with my knowledge of UK political partys (see BNP thread)

and several of my friends have alot to answer for for not letting me know this last time i was over there and bored

I actually had to COMPLIMENT girls to get laid!!!!

Darias



Socliciting is illegal, also 2 or more women working in the same venue is illegal but prostitution in itself is not illegal in the UK

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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/19/2008 7:21:50 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Punter; "are you at this time under the influence of a third party which forces you to provide sex for money?"

Prostitute; "no"

Punter; "great!"

Police; "this is an instance of strict liability and you are under arrest"

Punter; "but I asked and she said no"

Police; "save it for your brief"

Having asked and been informed that paying for sex would not constitute an offence is no defence for this charge. I find this sort of law - where intent is of no interest or relevance, a little disturbing.

E


Yes, it is yet another example of other laws pertaining to other things that have a similar theme. That is the problem with the UK law, no one seems to know where they stand in what they do, there is no clearly defined line and so we are at the mercy of the law profession. Interesting that many of those in positions of power in Government, the law proposers and makers are, or were in their professional capacities prior to their  Government appointments, lawyers and solicitors.

It worries me this new law that deals with internet imagery is going to be much the same, the same undefined line, a line decided by the law profession depending on what is flavour of the month at the time and who is it that is in the dock.

This new law, I understand will do nothing except push the intended criminals underground, a place of even more danger for those involved. Perhaps it is with these stupid laws we seem to be allowing our owners to make, what they desire in having these laws is to appear squeaky clean on the surface and ignore what crawls beneath.


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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/20/2008 12:32:45 AM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		I'm going to ramble. I am torn on this. Once upon a time I rambled some shit on New Orleans. Same shit, not a citizen.

The thing that kills me about things of this nature is that they need to prosecute starting at the top.
The article here said that there were laws already in place to deal with that type of situation. I'm not familiar with UK law. I am up until that little cutoff thingy with the US which does me no good here.

There was a study that came out several yaers ago that placed 50,000 to 100,000 people being trafficked into the US. Of course, that beat the governments "official" numbers.  50,000 people just don't slip into the country. They are getting in from the top...........not the bottom.  I doubt very seriously that it is different in any other country.

My personal experience, which admittedly is not jack, is having worked with women from the Eastern Bloc and one male. My boss had come to the US seeking asylum because he had a "problem" with the government in Poland. I worked for him, another man from Poland and a Russian man who had a club in Miami, whom I never met. I was in the Key's at the time.  The man that I will call my primary boss came to me at another bar and asked me to open his bar. I agreed. He owned a jewelry business and a few other "asides". 

I ended up as a GM of this strip club. We had this influx of girls. They spoke little English. See, the name of the game is that they place a ligit ad in a paper and state that you can become a ligit citizen for $10,000.  You make the money real fast, you pay it off, and your in a better place. So, they do. They get all the way over here. The ones that aren't deemed "pretty" go to work as housekeepers in the hotels and motels up and down Florida. The ones that are "pretty" go to the clubs. They work the circuit. This means that they never stay in one place, therefore, they can't learn the language or the local, they move from one area to another. They are to be afraid of INS, and well, frankly, INS gives them no cause to trust them. Language barrier. Fear. They are paid possibly $2.50 an hour, but money is taken away to provide for housing and food. They never get out of debt. Never.

When I first met this collection of women, I thought that they were dancers. Over time, their English was good enough to communicate. I had originally thought that they were just dancing and this was not the case. I remember, distinctly, a Cheklosavakian chic who kept trying to tell me that she had been a teacher and that this was never something that she would have ever considered. She was humiliated and depressed and angry and could not leave because she owed money. She was always going to owe money.  All they wanted to do was to go home. They hate this place.

There was a safe that held the "green cards". I remember that the night before INS raided that those cards were taken out. INS did come. The bar stayed open. Nothing ever happened. Some time later the bar closed, but there were never any penalties.  EVER. There is not one doubt in my mind that those girls were moved again.

I almost forgot the male. We opened the bar together and he worked as a cook. He was from Yugoslavia, so we got the time frame. He had a Russian-English translation book. I never got what he was trying to tell me. I never got it. That book blew my mind. He would hand it to me and I would get so lost. After some time, he was able to tell me that I worked for a very bad man, and he was not angry with me, and that he had just secured passage on a boat......home.  The man worked 17 hours a day, 7 days a week. I mean, I spent 20 out of 24 hours in this establishment and he was with me.

So, yes, a rape charge would be justified but will do no good. I would feel good for a quick minute.

Further, this is why, and this is whether you agree with it or not, there are no unions in the South. It is not about right to work. It is about right to hire. If the UK truly wanted to help and for that matter, the US, they would nail them at the top.










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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/20/2008 2:24:43 AM   
tweedydaddy


Posts: 673
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		It's the intended prejudgement that any man should know all about the circumstances that the woman is in that buggers me.
Preloading ignorance is no defence in legislation is so like Jackie Smith, the nazi cow even wants to remove any freedom of thought or interpretation for Police, Judge and Jury, this is very dangerous.
I don't use prostitutes, but I have sympathy with people who do, not everyone can find a partner when they really need one.
It makes me sick that British society treats sex workers with such hatred, yet happily taxes them to the hilt.
I suppose if our newspapers could get out of the hypocritcal merry go round they might see the damage they are doing by leading the masses to assume that all prostitutes are drug ridden trafficked slaves.
Not in my lifetime I fear.

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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/23/2008 1:40:09 PM   
Lynnxz


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Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		Ugh.

I need help. :(

I'm doing a freaking enormous paper on the legalization of prostitution in the states, arguing in favor of. I'm trying to include a source that's actually NOT in favor of legalization, but doesn't base the entire argument on religion or morals. All the research I've found points towards the conclusion that sex workers and their clientèle would be better off protected by the law.

Anyone have pointers on where to look? I'm sifting through Galileo and all of it's sources at the moment, but my brain is melting, bleh. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/23/2008 3:04:37 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Yes.

Actually investigate before taking a position.

It's the difference between knowledge/argument and preconceived babble.

A reasonable person (and paper) would acknowledge that evidence dictates a change in position.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/23/2008 3:06:04 PM >

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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/23/2008 3:06:17 PM   
Vendaval


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Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		General Reply - I am agreement with several here that favor legalization, taxation and health care for sex workers.  Another point to be made is that vice sweeps and crackdowns are usually done for political purposes during and prior to election years and to add cash to the coffers of municipalities and jurisdictions.

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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/23/2008 5:04:27 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Giuliani clamped down on prostitutes in NYC by seizing the johns cars. Amazing how having to call their wives to get them, and tell them what happened shut down the trade on the streets.

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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/23/2008 5:48:53 PM   
Lynnxz


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From: Atlanta
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yes.

Actually investigate before taking a position.

It's the difference between knowledge/argument and preconceived babble.

A reasonable person (and paper) would acknowledge that evidence dictates a change in position.


*Stares in annoyance at the piles and piles of research on the floor*

>.>

That's not how this paper works, and there's nothing in my paper that resembles preconceived babble

I must deliver sources on both sides of the argument, if you noticed.  I know where ' I ' stand, and have stood for several years now, but cannot for the life of me find sources that support the criminalization of prostitution... unless of course you bring morality into it, which is something I'm trying to avoid for this paper.

< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 11/23/2008 5:52:12 PM >

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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/23/2008 6:09:16 PM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

How about, they legalize it, regulate it, and tax it!

Oh yeah, that would make too much sense. (insert eye roll here)



or how about the legalize it, not regulate it, and not tax it!

"Anyone who knowingly pays illegally trafficked women for sex could face rape charges,"

really? what is with everyone in the world forgetting what rape actually is?

"Buying or selling sex is legal but soliciting and pimping are not."

wait a second.  how does one buy/sell sex without soliciting?


< Message edited by variation30 -- 11/23/2008 6:11:57 PM >

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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/23/2008 6:15:17 PM   
variation30


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From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Such a "liberal," "ungodly" idea would never pass in uptight, Bible-thumpin', Conservative America.

Hell, we don't even allow stem cell research done in the rest of the world.

And oh yeah, we just tell teens to abstain from sex. That works...

But that's how it's been even since man and dinosaur roamed the Earth together 5,000 years ago in the Garden of Eden.

Reality has a well-known liberal bias. And such proposals as this would only raise taxes.

I know that makes no sense. They just would, OK? Ask anyone.

Oh, and create big government. Almost forgot.


what the government will and will not do with public money does not equate to the mentality of americans.

sorry, but there isn't a 'we' that tells teens to simply abstain for sex. it's not a 'we' that doesn't allow stem cell research.

your thinking is muddied by your fetishism of the collective pronoun.


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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/23/2008 6:28:16 PM   
variation30


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Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

Ugh.

I need help. :(

I'm doing a freaking enormous paper on the legalization of prostitution in the states, arguing in favor of. I'm trying to include a source that's actually NOT in favor of legalization, but doesn't base the entire argument on religion or morals. All the research I've found points towards the conclusion that sex workers and their clientèle would be better off protected by the law.

Anyone have pointers on where to look? I'm sifting through Galileo and all of it's sources at the moment, but my brain is melting, bleh. Any help would be greatly appreciated.



a) googe scholar + a search for bs sociology papers
b) look for feminist theories that say prostitution inevitably leads to forcing women into a role as a second class citizen/is deaming for the entire sex.
c) laugh


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all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/23/2008 6:58:00 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		Prostitution or the right to use ones own body in a manner one selects is a fundamental god given right if I've ever seen one. I mean, seriously, if one can not select what one does with their own body, then a person has nearly no rights at all. This is an even simpler case than abortion, which is a more complicated version of the same argument, because some percieve the fetus to be human, while others don't. However, in the case of sex, and just sex between to consenting adults, there is no complication, and the argument really boils down to, does the state own your body, or do you own your body. If you do, then you should be able to let people use your body for money if you select, if the state says you can't then it implies that your body is somehow subject to their wishes, and that infers some sort of ownership and rights over your body, which is complete bullshit. 

Ownership of your body, is fundamental to anything remotely called freedom.




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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/23/2008 7:18:15 PM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

Ownership of your body, is fundamental to anything remotely called freedom.


I could not agree more. what you will see, though, is that people aren't willing to take that through to it's ends. this means that people have rights to suicide (assisted or otherwise), the use of any drug they want at any time (from adderall to heroin to xanax), so any kind of mutilation, to any kind of sexual relationship, etc.

most people think that ownership of one's body is fundamental to anything remotely called freedom, so long as they don't do anything with their body they think is 'bad'.


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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/23/2008 7:25:30 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

How about, they legalize it, regulate it, and tax it!

Oh yeah, that would make too much sense. (insert eye roll here)



or how about the legalize it, not regulate it, and not tax it!

"Anyone who knowingly pays illegally trafficked women for sex could face rape charges,"

really? what is with everyone in the world forgetting what rape actually is?

"Buying or selling sex is legal but soliciting and pimping are not."

wait a second.  how does one buy/sell sex without soliciting?



Soliciting is done in a public place. Apparently it is legal when using online or paper sources to advertise.


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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/23/2008 7:26:42 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

Ownership of your body, is fundamental to anything remotely called freedom.


I could not agree more. what you will see, though, is that people aren't willing to take that through to it's ends. this means that people have rights to suicide (assisted or otherwise), the use of any drug they want at any time (from adderall to heroin to xanax), so any kind of mutilation, to any kind of sexual relationship, etc.

most people think that ownership of one's body is fundamental to anything remotely called freedom, so long as they don't do anything with their body they think is 'bad'.



I personally do go that far, I see no reason why a person can't kill themselves, as long as it doesn't result in the destruction of anothers property or damages them physically. As far as drugs go, really it makes little sense to criminalize the use of drugs, however, that is not the same as saying all drugs should be legal to sell. Those are two different arguments, the difference being that the use of drugs would hold no criminal liability.
However, prostitution is very simple, as it is not the interaction between a person and an object, rather its an interaction between two people, and people under any free system, can not be fractionally or wholly owned, whereas an object(drugs), can be owned and thus the argument of ownership and rights to drugs is much less distinct and clear cut.

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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/23/2008 10:51:59 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

How about, they legalize it, regulate it, and tax it!

Oh yeah, that would make too much sense. (insert eye roll here)



Such a "liberal," "ungodly" idea would never pass in uptight, Bible-thumpin', Conservative America.



Don't be sure sure, MM.  It is very easy to blame it all on the Bible thumpers, but there are a lot of conservatives and libertarians who do not base their political idealogy on bible thumping morality.  Start a grass roots campaign.  Prostitution is legal in parts of Nevada. 
I live in a state that is considered pretty damn red.  Yet we have passed laws by ballot twice now to legalize medical marijuana and they were even more liberal than The Cali laws. And by a much larger margin, I might add.  Unfortunately they are not in effect due to threats from the federal government.  They would take away the perscription writing power of any doctor who dared to perscribe it.   The state legislature overturned the measure and that died a quick and ugly death.  Twice now.  States rights, My ass.
I also live 2 miles from a reservation casino.  I was nearby when the FBI hauled their asses in and tried to shut it down due to some crazy Federal laws.  They got shot at.  Guess what else?  I, and many other Arizonans advised that the next time we would be on the res with the natives helping them shoot.  The casino, as well as many others are alive and doing a healthy business.
Makes you proud to be an American, doesn't it? 
Prostitution should be legalized and taxed.  I do not feel it needs to be regulated.  But the Ladies, who are never going to stop anyway, would be safer and I would applaud their entreprenurial enterprises and welcome the additional tax dollars.  I am tired to trying to carry so much of it as a smoker.
Yeah...that's just the way we are in gun totin' Arizona.
Don't keep leaning on that tired argument that the only reason things logical things don't get done in the US of A is because of the "bible thumpers."
 

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 11/23/2008 10:54:36 PM >

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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/24/2008 5:58:20 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

Are you kidding? Legalize prostitution in the US? >.< Hell, they won't even supply condoms to third world countries where prostitution is legal.





Does this mean you think the US should be supplying condoms to third world countries? Why would that be our responsibility?

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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/24/2008 6:50:31 AM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
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From: Atlanta
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

Are you kidding? Legalize prostitution in the US? >.< Hell, they won't even supply condoms to third world countries where prostitution is legal.





Does this mean you think the US should be supplying condoms to third world countries? Why would that be our responsibility?


No. PEPFAR, a 15 billion dollar package that is directed to help fight AIDS  refuses to  assist "Any group or organization that does not have an explicit policy opposing prostitution and sex trafficking."

Kind of ass backwards, refusing to help the people that may have the highest risk of catching and spreading the disease.

PEPFAR also will not fund organizations that "Preform or actively promote abortion.... even if the money they are using to do so comes from other sources"

If you are going to help, help. Don't pick and choose who gets a free condom, gawd.



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RE: .Prostitution a Criminal Offense. - 11/24/2008 7:09:33 AM   
Anarrus


Posts: 475
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Giuliani clamped down on prostitutes in NYC by seizing the johns cars. Amazing how having to call their wives to get them, and tell them what happened shut down the trade on the streets.


That didn't exactly stop Elliott Spitzer, now did it?
What really gets to me is the hypocrisy of it all. Many of our lawmakers, those in positions of power and those that keep them in power, resort to and use prostition services regularly. They simply pay more for it.

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