RE: what is it about unions?

RE: what is it about unions? (Full Version)

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thishereboi -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 6:38:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 If the situation is a free-market economy, then all unions are bad. Anything that seeks to institutionalize the market power of any participant in the marketplace is a bad idea. So the 84 hour work week is fine with you? The company store system is ok with you? You approve of child labor? You also disapporve of corporations? Or is it only organized labor that you disapprove of? That's what the labor laws are for. You have heard of labor laws right? Again, you seem to be missing the point. Why were those labor laws enacted? Oh, never mind, I remember. The companies that were making immense profits suddenly realized the error of their ways and, seemingly unable to control their own greed and in a fit of remorse, pleaded with Congress to pass laws to control them before they were allowed to exploit again. It doesnt really matter why the laws were passed. They were passed and they protect the workers. Bringing up issues like child labor and overtime as a reason for keeping unions doesn't make sense, when we have laws against that now. So tell me, when my neice got her first job at 18 working for Meiers and was forced to pay union dues for the privaledge of working there....what exactly was the union doing for her? Besides taking part of her paycheck.

rulemylife -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 7:26:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Again, you seem to be missing the point. Why were those labor laws enacted? Oh, never mind, I remember. The companies that were making immense profits suddenly realized the error of their ways and, seemingly unable to control their own greed and in a fit of remorse, pleaded with Congress to pass laws to control them before they were allowed to exploit again. It doesnt really matter why the laws were passed. They were passed and they protect the workers. Bringing up issues like child labor and overtime as a reason for keeping unions doesn't make sense, when we have laws against that now. So tell me, when my neice got her first job at 18 working for Meiers and was forced to pay union dues for the privaledge of working there....what exactly was the union doing for her? Besides taking part of her paycheck. How long would those laws stay in place without the opposition from unions to keep the unlimited lobbying dollars of major corporations in check? What the union was doing for her was making sure she got paid a fair wage instead of being exploited as a naive 18 year-old in her first job. Or do you think that Meiers would have paid her, out of the goodness of their hearts, the same starting salary that they would have offered to a 45 year-old man with a family to support? If they are both doing the same job with the same level of experience should they not be paid the same?

celticlord2112 -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 7:28:42 AM)
quote: What the union was doing for her was making sure she got paid a fair wage instead of being exploited as a naive 18 year-old in her first job. There is no such thing as a "fair wage".

meatcleaver -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 7:32:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: What the union was doing for her was making sure she got paid a fair wage instead of being exploited as a naive 18 year-old in her first job. There is no such thing as a "fair wage". That is why unions are necessary.

celticlord2112 -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 7:40:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: What the union was doing for her was making sure she got paid a fair wage instead of being exploited as a naive 18 year-old in her first job. There is no such thing as a "fair wage". That is why unions are necessary. That is why unions are destructive. They waste time and energy pursuing that which does not exist--the very essence of economic inefficiency.

ThundersCry -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 8:01:41 AM)
Did I studder? I would have robbed and pilfered to feed and care for them if I would have had...to..

windchymes -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 8:05:11 AM)
One of the things that gives unions a bad name is that they protect the "rights" of the wrong people, of those who have learned how to "work the system" to get a free ride. I have personally seen a situation where a worker was out on a minor worker's comp injury...okay, fine....then had to miss more work because he broke his arm riding a four-wheeler, while he was out on disability. Finally came back to work after being off over six months, forcing us to lay off a very good and responsible worker who filled in for him. His first day back, requested two weeks vacation, which we were required to honor, because he was "entitled" to it per union regulations. I have worked for employers who were so afraid of the union, that they would disrupt the schedules and long-term working conditions of the rest of the staff to accommodate one trouble-maker, because she would run to the union if you looked at her cross-eyed, and they'd back her up every time. This employee took a disability hiatus every single year for at least 6 years to have surgery for some complaint. She was always the one who would slip on the patch of ice in the parking lot that the maintenance crew missed, would trip over an uneven floor tile, would choke on something in the cafeteria. She did everything but throw herself down a flight of stairs so she could have a little extended vacation. Yet, she was constantly molly-coddled because, oh my god, she might go to the union. Stuff like that is why.

rulemylife -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 8:21:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes One of the things that gives unions a bad name is that they protect the "rights" of the wrong people, of those who have learned how to "work the system" to get a free ride. I have personally seen a situation where a worker was out on a minor worker's comp injury...okay, fine....then had to miss more work because he broke his arm riding a four-wheeler, while he was out on disability. Finally came back to work after being off over six months, forcing us to lay off a very good and responsible worker who filled in for him. His first day back, requested two weeks vacation, which we were required to honor, because he was "entitled" to it per union regulations. I have worked for employers who were so afraid of the union, that they would disrupt the schedules and long-term working conditions of the rest of the staff to accommodate one trouble-maker, because she would run to the union if you looked at her cross-eyed, and they'd back her up every time. This employee took a disability hiatus every single year for at least 6 years to have surgery for some complaint. She was always the one who would slip on the patch of ice in the parking lot that the maintenance crew missed, would trip over an uneven floor tile, would choke on something in the cafeteria. She did everything but throw herself down a flight of stairs so she could have a little extended vacation. Yet, she was constantly molly-coddled because, oh my god, she might go to the union. Stuff like that is why. Oh, I see. Do you think, just maybe, that the proper approach would be to address the problems and try to fix them or should we just throw the baby out with the bathwater?

rulemylife -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 8:32:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 There is no such thing as a "fair wage". Yes, I know. Pay as little as possible and if you can pay someone naive enough not to know the value of their work less than someone else doing the same job, all the better. Greed is good!

defiantbadgirl -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 8:34:21 AM)
I agree that a few union workers may abuse the system. But far more hardworking Americans are getting screwed by being paid ridiculously low wages even after working for the same company for eight or more years. The needs of the many far outweigh the screwed up few. As far as blaming unions on outsourcing.....there is an easy way to fix that and keep the unions. When the corporations ask the government to bail them out, bringing those jobs back to the US should be made a requirement or they don't get the money.

NorthernGent -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 8:46:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 There is no such thing as a "fair wage". You're correct, of course, in the sense that 'fair' is subjective. There is an alternative view, however, and it's one that is embedded in the principles of Corporate Governance, which is a purely utilitarian notion aimed at self-regulation. Corporate Governance is not concerned with parity; rather, the goal is long term, sustainable growth for the greater good of the business, its owners/the shareholders, the employees of the business, the wider economy and it follows social stability. It's not a product of a left-wing organisation hell-bent on 'a fair day's pay for a fair day's work'; it is the product of a business community that recognises that fat-cat salaries and bonuses are, ultimately, short term actions vested solely in the interests of the directors: actions detrimental to all other stakeholders with an interest in a viable business.

meatcleaver -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 9:50:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: What the union was doing for her was making sure she got paid a fair wage instead of being exploited as a naive 18 year-old in her first job. There is no such thing as a "fair wage". That is why unions are necessary. That is why unions are destructive. They waste time and energy pursuing that which does not exist--the very essence of economic inefficiency. CL, if the world was run the way you would like it to be run it would mean far more violence and far more unstable countries. You might think that materialism is the most important virtue in life, luckily most people don't think thst way.

celticlord2112 -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 10:15:45 AM)
quote: CL, if the world was run the way you would like it to be run it would mean far more violence and far more unstable countries. I don't want the world "run" at all. Too many people want to "run" the world. I want the "the world" left alone.

windchymes -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 10:44:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes One of the things that gives unions a bad name is that they protect the "rights" of the wrong people, of those who have learned how to "work the system" to get a free ride. I have personally seen a situation where a worker was out on a minor worker's comp injury...okay, fine....then had to miss more work because he broke his arm riding a four-wheeler, while he was out on disability. Finally came back to work after being off over six months, forcing us to lay off a very good and responsible worker who filled in for him. His first day back, requested two weeks vacation, which we were required to honor, because he was "entitled" to it per union regulations. I have worked for employers who were so afraid of the union, that they would disrupt the schedules and long-term working conditions of the rest of the staff to accommodate one trouble-maker, because she would run to the union if you looked at her cross-eyed, and they'd back her up every time. This employee took a disability hiatus every single year for at least 6 years to have surgery for some complaint. She was always the one who would slip on the patch of ice in the parking lot that the maintenance crew missed, would trip over an uneven floor tile, would choke on something in the cafeteria. She did everything but throw herself down a flight of stairs so she could have a little extended vacation. Yet, she was constantly molly-coddled because, oh my god, she might go to the union. Stuff like that is why. Oh, I see. Do you think, just maybe, that the proper approach would be to address the problems and try to fix them or should we just throw the baby out with the bathwater? Nooooo, the OP asked what got Americans riled up about unions and I gave her two examples. But since you mentioned it, how would you address those problems?

meatcleaver -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 11:12:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: CL, if the world was run the way you would like it to be run it would mean far more violence and far more unstable countries. I don't want the world "run" at all. Too many people want to "run" the world. I want the "the world" left alone. Then why do you insist on promoting free markets as though free markets are the natural state of the world. Free markets is an unnatural state. Markets have never been free and always been up for negotiation, even in the USA.

celticlord2112 -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 11:26:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Then why do you insist on promoting free markets as though free markets are the natural state of the world. Free markets is an unnatural state. Markets have never been free and always been up for negotiation, even in the USA. Because free markets are the most efficient, most equitable, and most benign mode of economic interaction extant. All other modes are destructive to both people and the planet.

meatcleaver -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 11:30:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Then why do you insist on promoting free markets as though free markets are the natural state of the world. Free markets is an unnatural state. Markets have never been free and always been up for negotiation, even in the USA. Because free markets are the most efficient, most equitable, and most benign mode of economic interaction extant. All other modes are destructive to both people and the planet. [sm=rofl.gif][sm=rofl.gif][sm=rofl.gif][sm=rofl.gif]And I suppose that's why free markets were rejected in the 19th century.

DomKen -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 11:35:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Then why do you insist on promoting free markets as though free markets are the natural state of the world. Free markets is an unnatural state. Markets have never been free and always been up for negotiation, even in the USA. Because free markets are the most efficient, most equitable, and most benign mode of economic interaction extant. All other modes are destructive to both people and the planet. WTF are you talking about? Free market economics resulted in unbreathable air and undrinkable water. You're old enough to remember the early 70's when the EPA was just getting started. Remember rivers catching on fire? I go canoeing on the north brnach of the Chicago River whish two decades was completely lifeless. This summer I saw herons, beaver, muskrat, bass and carp in it or on its banks. Seen an eagle or hawk recently? They'd all be extinct by now if the government hadn't forbidden manufacturing and use of DDT. I remember when a Bald Eagle sighting was front page news along teh Tennessee River. Last year I visited my relatives near Lake Guntersville and watched dozens of eagles fish and generally live their lives. Believe what ever you want but stop the flat out lies.

NorthernGent -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 11:54:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 Because free markets are the most efficient, most equitable, and most benign mode of economic interaction extant. All other modes are destructive to both people and the planet. So you say, repeatedly. Well, let's put some hard evidence on the table. Enron, an energy provider, was cooking the books; the company was putting loans through its subsiduaries and not consolidating them; furthermore, the company was treating loans as income in its financial statements. This business was merely the tip of the iceberg. Loads of listed companies on the New York Stock Exchange, were window dressing their financial statements and thus doctoring the share price. Ultimately, the numbers were meaningless and did not reflect the performances of these businesses. There were individuals in the US who knew of this long before the Enron story broke; they went to US politicians for a voice who weren't interested because they were bought; they went to anyone who may have been able to help - bought, I'm afraid. Now, the external auditors, Arthur Anderson if memory serves, should have spotted this and reported it, but they were also the consultants - in other words, bought and paid for. All of this happened because of the complete lack of regulation. No one was putting checks in place to ensure these people were concerned with long-term, sustainable growth; the directors simply helped themselves. The result? Enron, that of equitable and efficient stock, went bankrupt and shareholders and employees were shafted good and proper.

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/21/2008 7:02:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40 In the current automaker troubles, I do think the unions are being scapegoated. We are to blame for demanding inefficient cars and thus making them more profitable via price markup to the auto companies, so I cant blame corporate decisions that led to producing the big cars. They were simply following the profit. I blame politicians that have NAFTA'd this country, thus taking millions of US autobuyers out of the new car market. NAFTA has chronically proven to be better for shareholders and residents of foreign countries far more than producing any value to residents of this country. Good post. If companies paid decent wages and benefits there wouldn't be any "need" for Unions would there? My uncle owned a small trucking company and he paid whatever wages and benefits that the Union truckers paid just to keep the Teamsters out of his company so Unions benefited his employees. And we're talking about the infamous "Local 25!" I think it's a "good" thing for people to make a good week's pay! People who make $40 an hour buy houses, cars, furniture, appliances and all kinds of other things. And that's good for the economy. People who make $10 an hour don't buy much of anything. DES, plumbers here in S.C. get $60 an hour. Where did you find a Plumber in NYC for $30 an hour? It's funny, people who think that $60 an hour is "too much" for someone's labor don't think $200 per hour is "too much" for a Lawyer's labor. Lawyers are a dime a ton these days, try and get a Plumber! Or any other person who sits at a desk, it's "O.K." for them to make $500 per hour but "not O.K." for a laborer to make $50 an hour? Just once, *ONCE*, I would like someone (preferably you, Popeye, since you bring it up so often) explain to Me why $40 per hour is a living wage. And let's not forget that we must have 2 income families, so we might even add another $25 per hour for the lowly wifey? Please, break it down for Me! What are we spending $1600 per week on, (sans a second income from a partner) and why can't people live on $15 or $18 per hour. Based on the fact, of course, that they would live within their budget. And do not go with an area of the country where the cost of living is so high that people could not afford rent if they were not making at least that much. Gauntlet is down...Go fer it!

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