2025......a different world

2025......a different world (Full Version)

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LaTigresse -> 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 9:05:06 AM)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97295939 So, I was driving to work this morning and listening to the radio rather than bother changing the CD's I've gotten tired of and heard this discussion. I think we all know that there are some dramatic changes taking place. I think that some of us also feel that the US, and the place it holds in the big world picture will never be what it has been for a large part of our lives. I also believe that is what has fueled alot of the fear and hatred both on our part towards others and of others towards us. I can understand a bit, the fear of many of my fellow US citizens. We were raised to believe that the US was the best place in the world and given a whole long list of reasons to back it up. Our freedoms, our way of doing business, our government model. All supposed to be the very best, something others envied and wanted. That is what we were taught. It has been so engrained in our very identity that the idea of losing any of it is quite frightening. Yet, big picture, it is crumbling all around us. Enough so that some, like me, begin to wonder "Is it really the best?" Oh, I am not being unpatriotic, I just believe that nothing ever stays the same. That things, even governments, must evolve grow and change. Some of our ideas are perhaps, becoming antiquated. Lord knows I am no great scholar, nor do I pretend to be. But I do think that things are changing and, in the face of all the frightened "the sky is falling" voices, I question, while painful and frightening, is the end result going to be as horrible as imagined? Call me a blind optimist but, I don't think so. I dont think losing our super power status is all that terrifying. In fact, I rather welcome it. I've grown to dislike alot of the arrogance that is substituted for pride in being a citizen of the US. Who knows what the future holds, no one really. But it is interesting to speculate. I find it all rather exciting, not frightening.

jlf1961 -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 9:47:39 AM)
I have long held the belief that the United States would eventually lose its status as a world leader, but not for the reasons stated. As a student of history, I would suggest that the reasons lie with the American society. The analogy that the US would go the way of the Roman Empire is not flawed, in point of fact you can see remarkable parallels between the last years of the Roman Republic, which preceded the Empire, and then the fall of the empire itself. Toward the end of the Republic, political corruption was rampant, as well as the popularity of blood sports. Julius Ceaser became the first Roman Emperor using the troops under his command to do so. At that point, Rome as a world power was in the beginning of its decline. While the United States has yet to to become a dictatorship, and will probably skip that situation, the country is, never the less headed for collapse. It is not the 'moral' decline of the society that is the cause of it, regardless of what the christian right would like us to believe, but other seemingly innocent problems. The Romans had blood sports in the Coliseum, we have the 'blood and gore' genre of entertainment, where we can justify it by saying no one got killed. It is not the death that is the draw, but the simulated bloody demise of humans. The American public has, for the most part, been held by the nightly news dealing with the war. Our government has grown top heavy with bureaucrats, while at the same time has seen an increase of political corruption. We as citizens are no longer surprised to hear of politicians taking bribes, involved in sex scandals, or any thing else that would be considered corrupt. In fact we freely admit that we accept it as part of the political process. We, as a people have become complacent. We no longer hold our leaders to a higher standard. By not holding to the ORIGINAL STANDARDS set by the founding fathers of this nation, who freely admitted their human flaws, we have actually become what many people in other countries see us as, a nation of ethically complacent, violent people. If the people of this country want to regain the status and respect of the world as we once held, then the people of this country need to take action. I am not saying to ban blood and gore movies, or arrest 'sexual deviants,' (what exactly is a sexual deviant anyway?) I am saying that we need to be honest with ourselves, we should hold our political leaders to a very strict code of ethics. If a congressman or woman wants to fool around, fine, but once they are caught, at least admit it. But when it comes to doing their job in congress, then they should do it regardless of what some industry political action group wants them to do. We need leaders who do not see the military as a diplomatic tool, but a tool that should be only used when all else fails.

celticlord2112 -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 10:25:52 AM)
quote: I dont think losing our super power status is all that terrifying. In fact, I rather welcome it. I've grown to dislike alot of the arrogance that is substituted for pride in being a citizen of the US. Omar said it most poetically: Think, in this batter'd Caravanserai Whose Portals are alternate Night and Day, How Sultan after Sultan with his Pomp Abode his destined Hour, and went his way. The United States cannot hope to maintain its hegemony indefinitely. My only hope is that, when that hegemony has abode its destined hour, whatever comes next also seeks to promote and protect individual civil liberty. My only fear is that the US will lose its hegemony because it has forgotten that individual civil liberty is the moral and philosophical foundation of this country.

Musicmystery -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 10:41:58 AM)
quote: My only fear is that the US will lose its hegemony because it has forgotten that individual civil liberty is the moral and philosophical foundation of this country. That ship sailed with the "Patriot Act," among a host of other assaults, including many from past administrations, back at least to Schenck v. U.S.

meatcleaver -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 11:19:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 My only fear is that the US will lose its hegemony because it has forgotten that individual civil liberty is the moral and philosophical foundation of this country. CL, most of the world disagrees with the US. There is nothing moral about individual liberty if the ideology of individual liberty subjects millions of people to penuary and slavery. The world has been here before and it has rejected the right of individuals to subjugate communities because it is in their power. Whether you like it or not, the world is based on cooperation and would be better with more cooperation.

popeye1250 -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 11:22:18 AM)
I welcome it too. To all those third world countries perpetually looking for handouts we can say; "sorry, we're broke, go ask China!" I was never a fan of that "world leader" crap! That assumes that the world "needs" a leader, it doesn't. And even if it did I wouldn't want to do it. What kind of egocentric thinking is that anyway? We pay the people in govt. to take care of this country not to be worried about other countries. Besides that, we're broke, we can't afford to be playing foolish games like that anymore.

celticlord2112 -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 11:23:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: My only fear is that the US will lose its hegemony because it has forgotten that individual civil liberty is the moral and philosophical foundation of this country. That ship sailed with the "Patriot Act," among a host of other assaults, including many from past administrations, back at least to Schenck v. U.S. Ships can be recalled. Acts can be repealed. High time for both to occur, don't you think?

RainydayNE -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 11:23:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 I have long held the belief that the United States would eventually lose its status as a world leader, but not for the reasons stated. As a student of history, I would suggest that the reasons lie with the American society. The analogy that the US would go the way of the Roman Empire is not flawed, in point of fact you can see remarkable parallels between the last years of the Roman Republic, which preceded the Empire, and then the fall of the empire itself. Toward the end of the Republic, political corruption was rampant, as well as the popularity of blood sports. Julius Ceaser became the first Roman Emperor using the troops under his command to do so. At that point, Rome as a world power was in the beginning of its decline. While the United States has yet to to become a dictatorship, and will probably skip that situation, the country is, never the less headed for collapse. It is not the 'moral' decline of the society that is the cause of it, regardless of what the christian right would like us to believe, but other seemingly innocent problems. The Romans had blood sports in the Coliseum, we have the 'blood and gore' genre of entertainment, where we can justify it by saying no one got killed. It is not the death that is the draw, but the simulated bloody demise of humans. The American public has, for the most part, been held by the nightly news dealing with the war. Our government has grown top heavy with bureaucrats, while at the same time has seen an increase of political corruption. We as citizens are no longer surprised to hear of politicians taking bribes, involved in sex scandals, or any thing else that would be considered corrupt. In fact we freely admit that we accept it as part of the political process. We, as a people have become complacent. We no longer hold our leaders to a higher standard. By not holding to the ORIGINAL STANDARDS set by the founding fathers of this nation, who freely admitted their human flaws, we have actually become what many people in other countries see us as, a nation of ethically complacent, violent people. If the people of this country want to regain the status and respect of the world as we once held, then the people of this country need to take action. I am not saying to ban blood and gore movies, or arrest 'sexual deviants,' (what exactly is a sexual deviant anyway?) I am saying that we need to be honest with ourselves, we should hold our political leaders to a very strict code of ethics. If a congressman or woman wants to fool around, fine, but once they are caught, at least admit it. But when it comes to doing their job in congress, then they should do it regardless of what some industry political action group wants them to do. We need leaders who do not see the military as a diplomatic tool, but a tool that should be only used when all else fails. this is something i've thought about alot throughout my life, especially after discussion of rome in history classes =p the parallels can be seen in all sorts of things

celticlord2112 -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 11:24:38 AM)
quote: Whether you like it or not, the world is based on cooperation and would be better with more cooperation. What you fail to realize is that without individual civil liberty, what you have is not cooperation but oppression. Cooperation proceeds from individual freedom and from no other source.

meatcleaver -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 11:27:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Whether you like it or not, the world is based on cooperation and would be better with more cooperation. What you fail to realize is that without individual civil liberty, what you have is not cooperation but oppression. Cooperation proceeds from individual freedom and from no other source. You have shown your poor grasp of history before. Individualism as an ideology was rejected in the late19th, early 20th century because it led to revolutions and social unrest and was replaced by consensus politics.

LaTigresse -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 11:28:40 AM)
In our house we have often discussed the similarities between Rome and the US.

popeye1250 -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 11:55:27 AM)
I don't think P.E. Obama got the memo yet! On his transition site's home page it states as one of his goals; "Renewing American Global Leadership." That can't be good! Will he try to get us involved in Darfur's or Haiti's problems? I hope someone tells him that he's going to be managing our govt. and not a charity for foreign countries!

corysub -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 7:26:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97295939 So, I was driving to work this morning and listening to the radio rather than bother changing the CD's I've gotten tired of and heard this discussion. I think we all know that there are some dramatic changes taking place. I think that some of us also feel that the US, and the place it holds in the big world picture will never be what it has been for a large part of our lives. I also believe that is what has fueled alot of the fear and hatred both on our part towards others and of others towards us. I can understand a bit, the fear of many of my fellow US citizens. We were raised to believe that the US was the best place in the world and given a whole long list of reasons to back it up. Our freedoms, our way of doing business, our government model. All supposed to be the very best, something others envied and wanted. That is what we were taught. It has been so engrained in our very identity that the idea of losing any of it is quite frightening. Yet, big picture, it is crumbling all around us. Enough so that some, like me, begin to wonder "Is it really the best?" Oh, I am not being unpatriotic, I just believe that nothing ever stays the same. That things, even governments, must evolve grow and change. Some of our ideas are perhaps, becoming antiquated. Lord knows I am no great scholar, nor do I pretend to be. But I do think that things are changing and, in the face of all the frightened "the sky is falling" voices, I question, while painful and frightening, is the end result going to be as horrible as imagined? Call me a blind optimist but, I don't think so. I dont think losing our super power status is all that terrifying. In fact, I rather welcome it. I've grown to dislike alot of the arrogance that is substituted for pride in being a citizen of the US. Who knows what the future holds, no one really. But it is interesting to speculate. I find it all rather exciting, not frightening. You might have been better off listening to a good CD. The U.S.A. will do just fine, thank you, and there is room for India and China on this planet to achieve greatness. It doesn't mean that the U.S of A would be a third world power...but just as we have in the past, we will have other world powers replacing the vacuum created by the demise of the Soviet Union. And the USSR really was a "world power" only in a a military sense. China and India have a business model of socialist/capitalism that works for them having seen that pure socialism is a failed theory. Twenty years ago these same pundits would have had Japan at the top of the list showing the way to the rest of the world. Japan is still in a decade long recession, thank you very much. Looking out to 2025 you could build a case that the USA would have climbed out of its 2008-2009 recession, the dollar remains the currency of choice for safety, and the technology developed for cleaner, effiicient energy, clean coal and nuclear will be driving a robust economy with some of the most productive workers in the world. The creativity and innovation of Americans has led this planet for generations, and will continue to lead the way. Hopefully, China would have cast off the bondage of a police state and India would have improved the lot of fifty percent of the population that lives in poverty. Don't make the mistake of extrapolation. That's what so many do, even in the study cited on NPR. China and India have been on the move for a decade...it would be reasonable to assume that they will continue to grow in the future if they stay on their present course...you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out....versus say....thinking that Peru would lead the world.... :) As far as Iran...everyone who has read any article on Iran knows that it was "formerly Persia and that it has a very young population...nothing new there either. As far as a criminal type government...heck...Syria and Hamas run Palistine...seem well on their way to that end. Just one final thought...you mentioned about the world hating us and us hating the world. In all of my conversations with foreigners and American friends...I don't recall any hatred between groups, and certainly Americans don't go around with "I hate Europe" or "I hate Africa" T-shirts...I don't think Americans really even think about foreign countries..much less hate them, unless they have done harm to us. Europeans are more into the "hate thy neighbor" thingy...fighting each other off and on since recorded history. Thankfully, we have had two big oceans seperating us from that insanity, although they weren't big enough to keep us from getting involved in a a couple of pretty big arguements over territory in the 20th century. We are going through extremely tough times that will test all of us. The younger generation really has never had to face what we are seeing these days...familiar to those of the baby boom and prior generations. Stay strong...stay proud of what we are...and don't bring yourself down to the level of people who would like nothing better than to see the collapse of the USA. At least...that's how I feel....

TheHeretic -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 8:47:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse In our house we have often discussed the similarities between Rome and the US. Great topic, LaT! No, the United States will not last forever, but we are a hell of a long way from done. I have to laugh a little bit when those of the far left, and anti-American schools of thought do their little gloaty, dick-waving, dance about our inevitable demise, though. A massive collapse of the US economy would ring in their worst nightmares. You are dead right about what is ingrained in our national subconscious. A certainty of our superiority. Let us fall into genuinely hard times, instead of the media-manufactured crisis du jour. Let us be challenged, and mocked. Bloody our nose. The fright you spoke of will very quickly become rage. Watch the shit hit the fan when some rhetoritician of Obama's caliber comes out of the right, and taps into that artesian well. The United States, knocked to it's knees, should terrify those who don't like us. It should terrify thinking people who love her, too. We are a young nation; healthy and strong. We have abundant natural resources, technical know-how that is still the envy of the world (think the F-22). We have a population which takes for granted that we are the best game in town. And down deep, LaT, we are not the nice, generous people we wish we were. Pushed into a bad spot, we are some savage, evil motherfuckers. Ask the Japanese about that, and I don't just mean the cities we invented the nuke to to obliterate. Now our current crop of 20-ish males might be soft video-game punks, but they'll make damn good UAV operators. Annexing Mexico, with it's nice supply of Spanish-speaking Marine and infantry recruits is pretty much a matter of when we feel like it, and have the will. Compare us to Rome all you like, LaT, but remember that we haven't done empire under a dictatorship yet. Anybody who wants to snark at this, you ain't seen nuthin' yet.

MissSCD -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 8:59:36 PM)
*I believe that we will destroy our ownselves. We want it all whether it is right or wrong.* *It is ok to be a criminal. It is ok to lie, cheat and steal on your own family. It is ok to kill your own children and try to say you don't know where you put the body.* *We are becoming a nation of sick individuals with no self control.* *As far as the year 2025, I hope by that point I may have a heart attack and die. Maybe I will get lucky and a car will hit me. Maybe God will intervene.* *I don't see a future for us as a country.* *For once, I am sad to say I am not proud to be a part of this country.* *I am not blaming any particular person or thing because it started years ago.* *We are some sick individuals who need to reconnect with our own inner beings as humans.* *Pay it forward.* *Regards, MissSCD*

pahunkboy -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/21/2008 9:07:31 PM)
Some good comments here. In school I was not taught the US was best. In fact the teachers encouraged us to question how things work and to decontruct the world around us. (figure it out) the attitude is predominant. it comes from nuero linguistic programing - per the TV set. it pretty much turns the person into a zombi with little or no thoughts of their own. the globalists have taken the US down. and we let it happen. unfortunately it is too late. we have 6-12 months before all hell breaks loose.[landsey williams) bank runs as soon as February. we can not go to the gold standard- because there is none. our best bet- is to live in a strong community. if you leave the country that years capital gains is taxed at full rate as reg income. and the USgovt has the right to tax you for 10 additional years. I try not to over post- but in a paragraph thats the gist of it

LaTigresse -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/22/2008 6:13:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse In our house we have often discussed the similarities between Rome and the US. Great topic, LaT! No, the United States will not last forever, but we are a hell of a long way from done. I have to laugh a little bit when those of the far left, and anti-American schools of thought do their little gloaty, dick-waving, dance about our inevitable demise, though. A massive collapse of the US economy would ring in their worst nightmares. You are dead right about what is ingrained in our national subconscious. A certainty of our superiority. Let us fall into genuinely hard times, instead of the media-manufactured crisis du jour. Let us be challenged, and mocked. Bloody our nose. The fright you spoke of will very quickly become rage. Watch the shit hit the fan when some rhetoritician of Obama's caliber comes out of the right, and taps into that artesian well. The United States, knocked to it's knees, should terrify those who don't like us. It should terrify thinking people who love her, too. We are a young nation; healthy and strong. We have abundant natural resources, technical know-how that is still the envy of the world (think the F-22). We have a population which takes for granted that we are the best game in town. And down deep, LaT, we are not the nice, generous people we wish we were. Pushed into a bad spot, we are some savage, evil motherfuckers. Ask the Japanese about that, and I don't just mean the cities we invented the nuke to to obliterate. Now our current crop of 20-ish males might be soft video-game punks, but they'll make damn good UAV operators. Annexing Mexico, with it's nice supply of Spanish-speaking Marine and infantry recruits is pretty much a matter of when we feel like it, and have the will. Compare us to Rome all you like, LaT, but remember that we haven't done empire under a dictatorship yet. Anybody who wants to snark at this, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. Nothing there to snark about. I think perhaps I pulled different things from the article than you did, but that is to be expected. Cory similarly, you seem to have assumed I took something far different from that radio programme and coorresponding article, than I did. Which only serves to underline one of my points.

pahunkboy -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/22/2008 6:20:52 AM)
since this is an official report- one has to log it as possible BS. however- I do beleive the globalists have taken over.

LadyEllen -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/22/2008 6:36:40 AM)
Lets say that the engine for Rome was a closed community of aristocrats who stood together, loyal citizenry, devastating military prowess, technology and adequate resources to use it. Lets say it all fell apart when that closed community took to infighting and corruption, the citizenry observing this became disenchanted and the military was undermined and turned on its own. The technology was still there - the resources (in fact far more resources) were still there - but the lack of unity, the discarding of the common interest and purpose, the abandonment of moral/ethical standards and the quest for personal power that accompanied those factors, made the technological abilities unworkable and turned the resources into an end in themselves rather than the basis from which to build. Unless there is unity and common purpose, governed by a standard of moral/ethical behaviour, towards the common interest - the remainder negative consequences will follow and all the resources and technology one could dream of become of no advantage whatever. The common purpose and common interest, indeed the standard of moral/ethical behaviour do not need to be of any particular flavour - they can be "evil" or "good" in simplistic terms - but they have to be there. Ultimately "Arbeit und Brot" are the final arbiters. E

meatcleaver -> RE: 2025......a different world (11/22/2008 6:47:59 AM)
Decadence is the word I think you're looking for LE. Though I don't think this is a US problem, it is a probelm for western capitalism and culture as a whole. When the sole purpose of a civilisation is the creation of material wealth to the exclusion of all else, there is little to sustain that culture and society. Western society needs a new reason for existing beyond the pursuance of material wealth, maybe science or space exploration or some philosophy, something that gives our being, stimulous to exist beyond merely existing.

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