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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 6:17:34 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		I am curious about one thing:  How will powering cars with batteries change the overall energy consumption?

A battery merely stores energy.  If the power plant that charges the battery is fossil-fuel driven, how much good is that battery actually doing?


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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 6:21:17 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		You askin' me? I've no clue.

Just sharin' the news.

Did you read the many, many articles in the link I provided? Those people can address your questions.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 6:33:55 PM   
toledotpeslave


Posts: 32
Joined: 11/10/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs


quote:

We put the waste deep under a mountain in Nevada. 


And run the high voltage lines regardless of the objections from the folks who live under them, I suppose.  Easier said than done is a bit of an understatement. 




exactly. it's easy to say "oh we'll just put it here" but people LIVE in those places. and they object as they certainly have the right to.




How many people live that "close" to Yuka Mountain?

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 7:25:13 PM   
RainydayNE


Posts: 978
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline 		it doesn't really matter
they're scared of the waste being in their vicinity and that's their right

yucca mountain is 90 miles north of las vegas
but also, what about the people in the cities on the route that takes the waste from the various plants TO yucca mountain?
what about the concern of the people in a state that has no nuclear power plants but would be storing all the waste?

this was all supposed to begin a long time ago. i remember talking about it in class aeons ago
but it hasn't gotten off the ground really because people who live near the site and in the pathways are just too uncomfortable
and that is their right.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 9:06:44 PM   
KAZVorpal


Posts: 31
Joined: 8/31/2007
Status: offline 		Electric cars will be "here" when they deserve to be.

At the moment, they are inferior, and undesirable.

What's more, they are not clean energy...in fact, in many places a purely electric car has a bigger carbon footprint than a gasoline car.

Too many Green solutions are actually harmful for the environment. Electric cars in states where nuclear power is effectively banned is one great example of that. It is inefficient for a Californian to charge up his car with electricity generated in a coal fire plant.

Likewise, hybrids are bad for the environment, as their batteries require ingredient so destructive that you might as well just drive an SUV, it's "greener".



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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 9:31:32 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I am curious about one thing:  How will powering cars with batteries change the overall energy consumption?

A battery merely stores energy.  If the power plant that charges the battery is fossil-fuel driven, how much good is that battery actually doing?


Its not so much about the amount of energy but the efficiency of its production. The internal combustion engine is very inefficient and with so many in operation it is hard to actually monitor how cleanly they operate. Large power plants sre much more efficient ways to generate power and it easier to ensure that they are run cleanly. Furthermore wind and solar are near zero emmission methods of power generation that can be used to charge auto batteries but do not themselves work onboard a vehicle.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 9:32:59 PM   
ThatDaveGuy69


Posts: 978
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		One of the benefits of electric cars is that it is easier to clean the emissions of a single power plant than the exhaust of 10,000 cars.  I think the phrase they use is point-source, or something like that.  While battries are just a storeage medium, the electricity can be produced in a lot of ways.  Personally, I'm a fan of nuke plants.  Only, I would charge the Navy with the design and operation of them.  Oh wait, that sounds like nationalizing the electric grid.   Hmmm... Couldn't be any worse than Enron.

~Dave


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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 10:04:20 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: toledotpeslave


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I have wondered what would happen to my electric bill with a plug-in.

Not that I can afford one anyway.

I used a kit to convert my Prius to plug in. I drive my car fairly sparingly, once or twice a week to work or on a sales call and grocery shopping and dry cleaning pickup on the weekends. My electric bill, for the garage I rent, went up about $5 a month. If it was on my apartment meter the kilowatt usage would likely result in a dollar or two more a month. I fill the tank about once a quarter.


I don't understand why someone would pay extra for a hybrid when they drive so little.

I've always been an advocate of a Toyota Corolla (or that type of car) for most buyers. A lot cheaper, less complicated, less batteries, so on, so forth.

I'm also an advocate for manual transmissions, which are almost dead, so I realize I'm probably wasting my time with most people.

Why did I buy a Prius over a cheaper car? First off I could afford it so it wasn't a financial burden. I actually get a state tax break and a lower insurance premium as well.

Also since I mostly drive in the city with lots of stop and go traffic the regenerative breaking and the ability to fully charge the battery overnight means I can run most errands with no use of the gas engine. The only time the gas engine really comes into use is those times when I get onto a highway either to go downtown or out to  a suburban location.

The finally point against a very small corolla size car is that while I live in Chicago most of my family lives in northern Alabama and I drive down to see them a couple of times a year and apurely electric car wouldn't be able to make the trip and a very small car would be too uncomfortable for me. I had owned a Geo metro before the Prius and had come to hate driving long distance in it so that really was the deciding factor in buying the Prius.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 10:32:25 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE

exactly. it's easy to say "oh we'll just put it here" but people LIVE in those places. and they object as they certainly have the right to.



     No problemo.  In 30-odd years, the middle east will be out of oil, and all that real estate is completely useless for anything but a storage unit. 

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/22/2008 12:06:12 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		It's doing a ton of good because you don't have to burn fossil fuels to produce electricity at a power plant.  You CAN, of course (if you are, say, a lobbyist for the coal industry), but thank God you don't have to.  You can use wind, solar, nuclear, hydro ... whatever you please.

Edited to add: I just hope Chevrolet is still around by the time they're ready to unveil the Chevy Volt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

A battery merely stores energy.  If the power plant that charges the battery is fossil-fuel driven, how much good is that battery actually doing?


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 11/22/2008 12:08:05 AM >

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/22/2008 5:46:30 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Electirc cars are already here, I saw several on my last visit to London and there are a couple that pass by my favourite cafe every morning here in Berlin. OK, they are small cars that are only good for commuting from the suburbs into the city. However, there probably isn't going to be a one size fits all solution. There are probably going to be several alternatives depending on people's needs. Parking in many European cities is becoming increasingly expensive that its slowly becoming prohibitive to use a big car, especially with some cities giving discount parking to small, more efficient and clean vehicles. As for driving serious distances, that is going to require a grid that can be used fast and efficiently as well as having practical cars and that is about who is going to pay for the grid, the car companies, the elctric companies or the taxpayer? Whoever is going to pay, its going to cost someone a lot of money in investment. I was reading mass transport is more efficient for the taxpayer because everyone can benefit, not just those able to buy a car. Also, replacing traditional cars with electric cars, won't solve the congestion problems. Motorways into the major cities will still be more like car parks than efficient transport infrastructure and that will encourage politicians to increase costs on the motorist in order to keep congestion down in major urban areas.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/22/2008 6:09:31 AM   
MistresseLotus


Posts: 443
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: (aka LotusSong)
Status: offline 		The solution was developed long ago.  And the inventor was murdered for his efforts.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/22/2008 7:50:28 AM   
MmeGigs


Posts: 706
Joined: 1/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KAZVorpal
Electric cars will be "here" when they deserve to be.


I'd agree with you that we're not ready for electric cars.  I think that they're an excellent fit for some folks, and the makers are working hard on the battery issues - trying to pack more storage into smaller batteries to minimize the environmental costs of production and provide more trunk space. 

quote:

Too many Green solutions are actually harmful for the environment.


I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.  When it comes to large scale and commercial stuff, we're really just starting to move from development into application where green technology is concerned.  It's going to take us some time to figure out which technologies and applications are a good fit and which aren't. 

A heck of a lot of green solutions - I'd go so far as to say most of them - have been around for a long time and are pretty completely win-win.  Most of them are things that I can do personally that save me money as well as save energy and resources and cut down on waste and polution.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/22/2008 8:25:23 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I’ve always wondered why we can’t combine some of the hybrid innovations with electric.

Why not install on the vehicle the new generation of solar cell materials…There is even a paint that can be used to gather electricity. This could be used to charge your car setting in the drive or parking lot at work…even when driving down the road.

Use the flywheel downhill generator to charge the batteries when going down hill. This could also provide a kenetic energy generator for starts and stops.

Install a small assist diesel engine for emergencies ...this could even be replaced later on by another technology such as hydrogen fuel cells.

I think the push for alternate fuel sources will make solar cell technology reasonable in price. Imagine charging your vehicle from your roof top array…Not too far out there. Hey, what if GM or Ford sold roof top rechargers along with the vehicles...another new way for them to make money.

As others have stated the electric grid and production can easily be increased and could only strengthen our economy with energy independence and new industries.

As an interim, coal could be used to take up the production increase until sources such as solar, hydro, and other new technologies come online.

Yes we will be trading one pollution for another during this switchover time but we would have the great benefit of power and political independence.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/22/2008 8:45:19 AM >

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/22/2008 9:32:30 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		~FR~

One obvious point is that posters didn't look at the links.

Check out the picture. Check the stats. Then discuss from a position of knowledge.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/22/2008 1:54:33 PM   
masterBruce


Posts: 133
Joined: 3/30/2004
Status: offline 		yes lets all get ele cars then we wont have the elce to run them because the libs dont want to bulid more power plnts i  SAY DRILL FOR MORE OIL NOW

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/22/2008 2:35:13 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Where?

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterBruce

i  SAY DRILL FOR MORE OIL NOW

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/22/2008 2:40:24 PM   
KYsissy


Posts: 781
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline 		At this stage of the technology, we would be exchanging one dependence for another.

NiMH batteries are yesterdays technology already.  Lithium ion batteries are now it.

The problem with any of these batteries is the ingredients which we have to import.  Cobalt is a critical component for Lithium batteries, Most of the cobalt is in war torn regions of Africa. Most of the Lithium comes from China near Tibet.  We would still be dependent on unstable parts of the world.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/22/2008 3:08:29 PM   
masterBruce


Posts: 133
Joined: 3/30/2004
Status: offline 		we can drill of the coast of cali and fl and their are oil shale in the west and then oil in alaska just drill and drill

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/22/2008 3:10:31 PM   
masterBruce


Posts: 133
Joined: 3/30/2004
Status: offline 		try cali fl and alaska

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