RE: Have the English given up on being English? (Full Version)

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Sundowner -> RE: Have the English given up on being English? (11/23/2008 11:30:34 AM)

 
Hi coloured - and don't worry, you rock. And if Milton's the chap who did Paradise Lost you didn't miss much kid - he's tough going for children at school as I recall.

The bloke with the ears - Andrew Marr - did a documentary on our recent history not long ago and ended the series with a rather cute comment about how hugely lucky one was if one was born British.

And didn't Mr Gilbert or Mr Sullivan write how "he might have been a Proosian, a French or Turk or Roosian, or perhaps Italian" etc with the strong suggestion (and the music to underline it) that being an Englishman was rather good news?

I'm Welsh (sorry for the spitting at you coloured; if I'd known it was you ...) and on balance I'm pretty happy with that.

And back to op topic - sorry meatcleaver, I didn't know Milton was 400 this year; I'm sure he was good but I still rate Mr Shakespeare as the better man. Not sure of his birthday though.



LadyEllen -> RE: Have the English given up on being English? (11/23/2008 1:17:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The state and culture are two completely different things.

I've no time for the British State, I'm not patriotic at all, the state never did anything for me and I don't give a toss if it disappears tomorrow. Blair and his plastic Brits come Englishman can disappear up their own arse. However, I am proud of my culture, the writers, the political rebels, the scientists and inventors, the idea of birthright which means you can come from anywhere and be an Englishman because being a free born Englishman is an idea, its a value. Many people think that concept is a modern one forged by the enlightenment but it isn't, it came out of the middleages.

I hate modern nationalism with its plastic values, government has nothing to do with culture, government is parasitic on culture, it is a necessary evil.  I can accept a flag as a symbol but I wouldn't be caught saluting one.


This is true - but the state has a central role in all this by actually teaching through the education system that we are a great nation that has achieved an enormous amount for a small island at the arse end of Eurasia.

As things are, it seems we should all feel nothing but shame for the imperial excesses of a few, ignoring totally every other factor in our heritage. We shouldnt pretend that the place is the same as it ever was, merely more evolved - because it has changed hugely through immigration and technology, but we should rightly use that heritage as the jumping off point for the modern evolution of our nation - not hold to the notion as I see it that we must forget all that stuff and use the arrival of the Windrush as year zero.

E



colouredin -> RE: Have the English given up on being English? (11/23/2008 2:23:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sundowner


Hi coloured - and don't worry, you rock. And if Milton's the chap who did Paradise Lost you didn't miss much kid - he's tough going for children at school as I recall.


And back to op topic - sorry meatcleaver, I didn't know Milton was 400 this year; I'm sure he was good but I still rate Mr Shakespeare as the better man. Not sure of his birthday though.


Yup i did know what he wrote, just never appealed to me really, im with you on shakespeare but also austen and the bronte sisters. To be fair every country in britian can claim a wonderfully influential author Dylan Thomas is welsh, Wilde was irish and A.AMilne was scotish. Im half welsh actually so i guess I really am British but ive lived in England most of my life so really relate more to Englishness.

I dont think appriciation of literature or culture has to be linked to nationality. Culture can be appriciated no matter what culture you are from.



DesFIP -> RE: Have the English given up on being English? (11/23/2008 3:27:14 PM)

Is it legit for a English Lit major to admit she never liked Milton? Because I didn't. But Chaucer is da man!. Was in the bookstore today and they have a new translation of the Canterbury Tales. Now I know much of the language is archaic but at least print the original on one page with the translation opposite it. The words translated but not the flowing sound. And people forget that how it reads is as integral as what it means.



colouredin -> RE: Have the English given up on being English? (11/23/2008 3:32:29 PM)

I totally struggle with chaucer, the BBC did some fantastic adaptations of the canterbury tales a few years back and it really inspired me to try to read them but i really couldnt get past the language, I will try again eventually I am sure, but i have to be really in the mood to work at reading, im reading Dracula at the moment and im finding that pretty heavy going because of the style obviously not the language. Mind you i always remember when i read wuthering heights the first time for the first 2/3 of the book i was working really hard then it clicked into place and I loved it sometimes struggling through is worth it.



DesFIP -> RE: Have the English given up on being English? (11/23/2008 3:56:22 PM)

Colouredin


Dracula and Wuthering Heights are important books, but not favorite ones. They are some of the first books that started modern genres. Dracula of course is the ancestor of every horror book and film ever made. And Wuthering Heights is one of the first books that kicked off romance, mystery, suspense etc.

My oldest is taking a course in the novel at university and they've read those books this year, along with some equally repellant others. She called up to say the prof said Wuthering Heights was one of his favorite books. I asked if he said favorite or important and she said, important.  She's also read The Awakening by Kate Hudson, (American). Important because it's one of the first written to talk honestly about women's sexual pleasure but by no means a fun read.

She's gotten lucky though, she had a lit class in high school that covered half of the same books. So her laptop has the old papers she wrote, plus being as she's going through it all for the second time she can focus on insights that the other kids don;t get as they're just trying to figure out who does what to whom. And the university professors grade easier than her prep school teacher did (what you call public schools).

But I love Jane Eyre and all of Austin.



colouredin -> RE: Have the English given up on being English? (11/23/2008 4:04:00 PM)

Jane Eyre is one of my all time favorite books, i read the professor recently too and its really rather charming. Austin is fantastic for the matriarcal characters also she is totally timeless.

I read wuthering heights at school so thats why i pushed it, dracula im reading for pleasure but its not very pleasurable, i think im reading it more to understand the cultural referances that sprang from it (often when i do that i am so disapointed, i really wanted to read lord of the flies and it was such a huge let down, i expected so much more from it)



Politesub53 -> RE: Have the English given up on being English? (11/23/2008 4:20:25 PM)

Anyone know why this has been moved here ? I cant see a reason for it in reading the posts.

Sundowner, there is some dispute as to if Shakespeare was born on April 23rd or the 22nd. He died on the 23rd, which is also St Georges day.

As for basic history, I wish more was taught in schools these days. That said, the standard kids have of basic English and Maths is very poor. This despite the vast sums spent on education.

Edited for spelling, or more to the point, misspelling. Ironic that I mentioned basic English. [:D]



colouredin -> RE: Have the English given up on being English? (11/23/2008 4:25:14 PM)

There is also an argument that shakespeare wasnt actually shakespeare.

I actually disagree that the standards are poor, they are far better than they were when I was in primary school the focus on literacy and numeracy is really rather amazing, when i volunteered in a history class I was amazed at the kinds of things that the kids said, far more advanced than I was when I was studying it. However in England they are removing history as a compulsary subject and replacing it with citezenship.

Also i was wondering why it was moved too



Politesub53 -> RE: Have the English given up on being English? (11/23/2008 4:42:20 PM)

I`m talking more about standards for school leavers. There are lots of links like the one I have posted. The incredible thing is these nurses can`t pass the numeracy and literacy tests, even needing just 60% to pass.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/3342370/A-third-of-new-nurses-fail-simple-English-and-maths-test.html



FourQ -> RE: Have the English given up on being English? (12/15/2008 5:35:30 AM)

Being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV.

And the most British thing of all? Suspicion of anything foreign.



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