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Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 3:56:31 AM

meatcleaver

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I'm led to understand frommthe BBC that there will be no celebrations in England this year of the 400th aniversary of the birth of John Milton, patriot, fighter for free speech, champion of divorce but above all, one of the greatest poets in the English language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Milton

Does this mean that the English don't care about their cultural heritage anymore?

Any other nation would be making sure the world remembered one of the greatest exponents of their language and culture.

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 4:13:56 AM

colouredin

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http://www.christs.cam.ac.uk/milton400/events.htm
http://earlymodern-lit.blogspot.com/2008/10/john-milton-400th-anniversary.html
http://milton-2008.lib.cam.ac.uk/

All some examples of English people celebrating this anniversary, I dont think to mark a significant event in our countries past we need to remind other countries of it. These events organised by universities, drama groups, individuals shows that peopleare still inspired by him, that he is still present. If the rest of the world dont want to remember its not our job to remind them its their loss.

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 4:21:02 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I'm led to understand frommthe BBC that there will be no celebrations in England this year of the 400th aniversary of the birth of John Milton, patriot, fighter for free speech, champion of divorce but above all, one of the greatest poets in the English language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Milton

Does this mean that the English don't care about their cultural heritage anymore?

Any other nation would be making sure the world remembered one of the greatest exponents of their language and culture.

I think you're putting two and two together to make five.

Englishness has never been conveyed in an overt, brash manner. It is a quiet, confident, and in many ways more powerful, sense of identity. Shouting from the roof tops has never been an English characteristic: we don't need to - we know.

I think the American war correspondent, Martha Gellhorn - married to Ernest Hemmingway - had it about right:

'I think the English have a superiority complex. The Germans are always asking, "What do you think of us?" They care, you see. The English don't give a damn. They're certain they're superior to everyone else, so they couldn't care less what others think'

'I can go away, spend six months in the jungle, come back and walk into the room, and people won't ask a single question about where I've been or what I've been doing. They'll just say, "Lovely to see you. Have a drink."'

Privacy, indifference, self-confidence are English traits that render an individual less concerned with national ideals.

The world? You've lived here. You must realise that this a place that is totally and utterly indifferent to foreign nations.

Edited to add: Meat, I don't need to run 'round celebrating someone's birthday, a person whom I haven't met by the way, to appreciate the value of being English.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 11/23/2008 4:25:57 AM >

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 5:07:40 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Edited to add: Meat, I don't need to run 'round celebrating someone's birthday, a person whom I haven't met by the way, to appreciate the value of being English.

I hope you haven't met him because he's been dead 400 years but I hope you've read him.

You talk about the qualities of being English but since it's our history, geography and language that makes us English, it is the knowledge of that that inspires confidence in ones nation.

The indifference comes from being fully acquainted and knowledgeable of ones culture, not being ignorant of it. When people talk about freedom and free speech etc. we know these ideals were born out of our culture and articulated by people such as Milton, a long time before other countries laid claimto them.

Sadly, your average English person wouldn't know that nowadays.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/23/2008 5:09:27 AM >

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 5:21:40 AM

Aneirin

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I know no one who will actually say they are proud to be English, or if they are asked their nationality, they reply British.

As to flying the flag, well, here our flag is used as decoration for underwear, flying the English flag either puts one as a football nut or a nationalist, most can't be bothered any more, what was Britain has gone.

Even the Government have noticed this, they recently ran an campaign on what it meant to be British, no one cares, we have had the life squeezed out of us, we are now just a nation of individuals that happen to live in Britain.

But then again, looking back into history, to a time of flag waving and pageantry, did the people then, the paupers, the traders etc believe they were part of a great nation, or they also just happened to live there, enabling the wealthy to get wealthier. If that is so, nothing has changed.

Oh, and then perhaps, the victorian period, gin was a problem, the authorities stamped on that, very much as they are trying to do with cheap booze now, nothing has changed, excessive alcohol consumption was a problem then as it is now, it just has to be our culture.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 11/23/2008 5:25:00 AM >

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 5:31:31 AM

missturbation

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I'm going to be totally unpatriotic here but what the hell. The only things us Brits really celebrate are those we get something out of. Christmas, birthdays, easter, valentines day etc etc.
I run a pub and always put events on for things such as St Georges day and noone is interested. The only one which attracts people is St Patricks day and thats just an excuse to drink copious amounts of guiness.
I think we need to remember as well that as the generations pass people like john milton become more and more unknown to the majority of society. I'll bet many of the people younger than me don't even know he is. I had to think about it.

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 6:40:25 AM

meatcleaver

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Knowing of and reading Milton and being aware of his contribution to the English culture is hardly patriotic, especially when you consider he was an anti-monarchist rebel (which is hardly patriotic), for free speech, for divorce and many other progressive attitudes to say of the time he lived in.

Sometimes one has to dispare, only the English could sing Blake's Jerusalem and think it was an establishment song when it was written as an anti-establishment poem.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/23/2008 6:41:39 AM >

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 6:44:49 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
You talk about the qualities of being English but since it's our history, geography and language that makes us English, it is the knowledge of that that inspires confidence in ones nation.

Crikey. Given most people's view of history here can be summarised as "dinosaurs -cave men - Jesus - 1066 - knights in armour - Waterloo - WW1, WW2 - 1966- the winner of the X Factor" (and even then they know little more than very basics), given that many people have no idea of geography outside the 20 miles radius from their home and many cant speak English to any tolerable degree of acceptability, we're onto a loser from the start.

E

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 6:47:18 AM

pahunkboy

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NG, that is how I percieve it.

Ild guess tho that many are so pushed by the globalists who push a new world order. The concept frightens me. fuck the new world order. i want tribalism.

my neck of the woods was better run under Chief Shikellamy. 6 nations lived in peace during his reign.

fuck globalism. it is killing all of us.

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 6:47:48 AM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Knowing of and reading Milton and being aware of his contribution to the English culture is hardly patriotic, especially when you consider he was an anti-monarchist rebel (which is hardly patriotic), for free speech, for divorce and many other progressive attitudes to say of the time he lived in.

Sometimes one has to dispare, only the English could sing Blake's Jerusalem and think it was an establishment song when it was written as an anti-establishment poem.

Arrrrrghhhh !!!!!!!!!, nnnnoooooooooo, you set me off now, I have been trying for weeks to get that tune out of my second mind, but now it's back !!!!

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 11/23/2008 6:53:07 AM >

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 6:49:13 AM

pahunkboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
You talk about the qualities of being English but since it's our history, geography and language that makes us English, it is the knowledge of that that inspires confidence in ones nation.

Crikey. Given most people's view of history here can be summarised as "dinosaurs -cave men - Jesus - 1066 - knights in armour - Waterloo - WW1, WW2 - 1966- the winner of the X Factor" (and even then they know little more than very basics), given that many people have no idea of geography outside the 20 miles radius from their home and many cant speak English to any tolerable degree of acceptability, we're onto a loser from the start.

E

Lady E! SHH.

I am trying to text, talk, and drive.

;-0

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 6:54:16 AM

meatcleaver

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Many of the greatest Englishmen were not patriotic and were not cap doffing yes men, they were anti-establishment rebels ready to think out of the box and stand up for their ideas even if they were unpopular.

I'm giving up.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/23/2008 6:55:04 AM >

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 7:01:41 AM

LadyEllen

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but MC we're all equal now, the same, the lowest common denominator, so we must be happy else be seen as evil agitators intent on only one thing - undoing the equality of all in such a model. knowing your history and geography you must not display it as this would be to step outside the lowest common denominator. thinking outside the box must be similarly curtailed. rejecting the equality of all is anathema.

now to enjoy another inane game show, or shall I watch some reality TV?

E

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 7:16:24 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

but MC we're all equal now, the same, the lowest common denominator, so we must be happy else be seen as evil agitators intent on only one thing - undoing the equality of all in such a model. knowing your history and geography you must not display it as this would be to step outside the lowest common denominator. thinking outside the box must be similarly curtailed. rejecting the equality of all is anathema.

now to enjoy another inane game show, or shall I watch some reality TV?

E

I guess. Blair's Labour Party's promoting Britishness is a case in point. Wanting us to be patriotic and believing in the state and saluting the flag and swearing allegiance to the afforementioned like a bunch of demented fascists.

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 7:19:50 AM

pahunkboy

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Im floored that I have to google waterloo.

oops ....Dana Perino doesnt know history either.

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 7:25:13 AM

LadyEllen

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But they cant have it both ways can they MC? They cant expect us to pay any heed let alone give any reverence to icons that represent "average" at best and in most cases we are told are evil vestiges of an awful nasty past where "we" roamed the world exploiting everyone and killing people.

As I've said so often, we need a new social model that is inclusive and unites us in pride in the modern Britain and with pride in being English and/or British. No one can be proud of their homeland if that homeland is what is holding them down.

E

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 7:30:44 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I know no one who will actually say they are proud to be English, or if they are asked their nationality, they reply British.

In my experience, I have found the opposite. I get annoyed when official forms have a box for everything but English. I just write English anyway. Its ironic that we got talking about Blake`s "Jerusalem" since Milton was the hero of the poem.

I get dismayed at many traditional events getting halted due to "Health and safety" I can see why councils dont want to take a chance on being sued. Yet it still saddens me that centuries old events just get cancelled.

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 8:02:25 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

As I've said so often, we need a new social model that is inclusive and unites us in pride in the modern Britain and with pride in being English and/or British. No one can be proud of their homeland if that homeland is what is holding them down.

E

The state and culture are two completely different things.

I've no time for the British State, I'm not patriotic at all, the state never did anything for me and I don't give a toss if it disappears tomorrow. Blair and his plastic Brits come Englishman can disappear up their own arse. However, I am proud of my culture, the writers, the political rebels, the scientists and inventors, the idea of birthright which means you can come from anywhere and be an Englishman because being a free born Englishman is an idea, its a value. Many people think that concept is a modern one forged by the enlightenment but it isn't, it came out of the middleages.

I hate modern nationalism with its plastic values, government has nothing to do with culture, government is parasitic on culture, it is a necessary evil. I can accept a flag as a symbol but I wouldn't be caught saluting one.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/23/2008 8:07:55 AM >

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 9:53:30 AM

FourQ

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The only time I salute a flag these days is on the 11th November. Not because I'm proud to be English/British, but because of those who fought saving Britain just so that the government could f**k it up for us.

Take a look at modern Britain, the kids have all the power and no discipline. We can't smoke in a pub but you tell a copper on the street that kids at the age of six are smoking outside the Spar and he explains that he's powerless to do anything.

The country is facing dire times, unemployment, crime etc. are all on the up. Lending is on the way down (and I realise this isn't exclusive to home) and it feels as though everything is going down the pan.

We used to be Great Britain. IMHO the day we abolished conscription is the day we started sending the country to hell in a handbasket.

quote:

ORIGINAL:missturbation
I'll bet many of the people younger than me don't even know he is.

It's true, the last time I heard him mentioned outside of a pub (and I rarely drink) was in school.

quote:

ORIGINAL:LadyEllen
Given most people's view of history here can be summarised as "dinosaurs -cave men - Jesus - 1066 - knights in armour - Waterloo - WW1, WW2 - 1966- the winner of the X Factor" (and even then they know little more than very basics), given that many people have no idea of geography outside the 20 miles radius from their home and many cant speak English to any tolerable degree of acceptability, we're onto a loser from the start.

I'm ashamed to have laughed at this, but it's true. I'm not too far more enlightened regarding history myself.

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RE: Have the English given up on being English? - 11/23/2008 11:01:12 AM

colouredin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Knowing of and reading Milton and being aware of his contribution to the English culture is hardly patriotic, especially when you consider he was an anti-monarchist rebel (which is hardly patriotic), for free speech, for divorce and many other progressive attitudes to say of the time he lived in.

Well are we remembering him due to him being english or because of his talent? If its his talent then why does it matter if the English arent celebrating him?

To be honest ive never read any milton, and i dont really feel badly about it, i havent been inspired to, i dont read things that 'you simply must read' it is pretty sad if people do (and yup i noticed your saying you hope people have read him)

I am actually proud to be English and I think we do have a fantstically rich history and culture, also Anerin my experiance is that English people tend to feel they should say British for fear of offending people, we arent much liked to be honest, i lived in wales in three years and was spat at and shouted at for being English. But you know I am proud of being both English and British cos i reckon we rock.

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