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RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 8:35:18 AM

Cagey18

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The best way to secure our southern border is to not have an impoverished, corrupt, third world country on the other side. There need to be jobs there. Corruption needs to be a crime, instead of the norm.

And the U.S. can create jobs in Mexico how? We're trying to create jobs in our own country!

quote:

Now if we just want to stop the illegal crossing on the border, and put on the cold-blooded pragmatist hats, it's pretty easy. First we deploy 100 or so sniper teams in likely places, and not so likely ones too. Use attack helicopters to take out vehicles. Once the word gets out about that, the volume will drop to something we can manage with electronic surveillance and response teams. The Presidents lawyers could probably draw up paperwork for it to be legal (for long enough, anyway) in about 10 minutes.

Do I understand you correctly?

1. That we should have a policy of killing/shooting unarmed people for crossing the border?

2. That you think such a policy can be made "legal"? (not to mention the international implications, and I'm not talking about just Mexico)

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 41

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 10:08:40 AM

UncleNasty

Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline

Dnoyar,

I'm not fond of singling people out but your opinion was expressed in such bold words I feel a bit compelled. I also believe your position has been heavily influenced by experiences with people close to you being addicts. Certainly addiction is tragic and destructive, and I am sorry if you've had those experiences. But your reaction overlooks a tremendous number of facts.

According to the War on Drugs Clock we are spending $1600.00 per second on the war on drugs. I expect there are a number of costs that are not included in this figure. For example foreign aid often has money for fighting cultivation and production. I also doubt if all of the social costs are included - A father that smokes recreationally is arrested for blowing a joint and for simple possession. Mandatory minimums apply and he ends up in jail. His wife is now a single mother, his children in a single parent household, less parental influence, one income so fewer resources and opportunities. One income not being enough the mother starts sucking at the government tit, a further economic drain. The social and economic costs continue playing out for years.

Addiction is a bitch. Many to most addicts would prefer not to be. How many 12 step and rehab programs are out there trying to help people? Scads of them. And this is without much in the way of financial resources.

If we converted some to all of the $1600/second towards rehab and recovery the impact addiction has on our society would be greatly reduced. Greatly. Not everyone who gets good treatment will recover, and many will require more than one stint in a program. Recidivist rates are pretty high. Being given more than one bite at that apple also dramatically increases success rates. I'm guessing now, that a good program may cost 60K or so and might last 6 months. If those numbers are anywhere close then we could fund one recovered addict every 38 seconds, or 95 every hour. That seems a much better allocation of resources to me than prison.

It is also important to point out that rates of reincarceration are quite high so that also seems to be an ongoing expense. Effective treatment in our private and for profit prisons is really not existant. Why pay for expensive treatment programs when it cuts into the bottom line?

Prohibition has many lessons for us. It doesn't work for starters. The numbers of alcoholics actually went up as a result. When made illegal it simply moved underground and then the wrong people were made powerfull. Organized crime in the twenties flourished, and we are still dealing with models and groups prohibition empowered. The drug cartels have been schooled by the Prohibition model too.

The history of the war on drugs is also interesting. The roots and beginnings did not develop out of concern for citizens. They developed out of racism. First laws were enacted against the smoking opium of the Chinese in San Francisco. The opium in laudnum, drug of choice of victorian women, was not addressed. The racism continued with cocaine and the campaigns for laws in re cocaine were enacted out of fear that black men used it and became so crazy they ran out and raped white women.

Marijuana didn't get on the radar until the mid 30's with the passing of the Marijuana Tax Act and the formation of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. Motives seemed to be economic for this and involved Hearst, DuPont and FBN Commissioner Anslinger. Machinery had just been developed that would separate hemp fibres much more cheaply so paper and clothing could could be made more economically than from trees and cotton.

Hearst owned papers, millions of acres of forests, and paper mills. If hemp began competing in the world of paper much of his fortune would have beem rendered worthless.

DuPont had also just developed processes, machinery and chemicals for paper production from trees and they stood to loose billions if hemp had been allowed to enter the market.

Anslinger wrote much of the campaign against hemp/marijuana and Hearst printed it in his papers, on paper produced from his trees, in his mills, using DuPont machinery and chemicals. Among the false claims made by Anslinger was that using hemp turned people into violent insane criminals. Interesting that years later he did a 180 degree turn on this when he teamed up with McCarthy in the communist witch hunts. He then made the claim that it was a red plot because it made people such pacifists there would be no resistance. Again, years later, we also learn that McCarthy had a long addiction to morphine and his drug supplier was none other than Anslinger. How is that for ironic hypocrisy.

In 1937 congressional hearings on the Tax Act the AMA was kept in the dark. Only one Dr testified saying the AMA knew of no harmful effects from marijuana, and further, between 30-40 products were on the market containing medical marijuana approved by the AMA.

Addiction is terrible. The war on drugs is a total farce. Both are true.

I didn't even mention abuse and addiction to prescription medicines.

One handed Uncle Nasty

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 42

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 10:19:42 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

1. That we should have a policy of killing/shooting unarmed people for crossing the border?

It would be a decided disincentive to illegal immigration.

_____________________________

(in reply to Cagey18)

Post #: 43

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 10:46:10 AM

Cagey18

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

1. That we should have a policy of killing/shooting unarmed people for crossing the border?

It would be a decided disincentive to illegal immigration.

So you're an advocate of this then? You like the idea of Federal snipers picking off Mexicans?

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 44

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 12:34:34 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

1. That we should have a policy of killing/shooting unarmed people for crossing the border?

It would be a decided disincentive to illegal immigration.

So you're an advocate of this then? You like the idea of Federal snipers picking off Mexicans?

Cagey, how about minefields?
Look at how effective *our mines* are on S. Korea's border.
NO-ONE gets in across those minefields!
And they can't tunnel under them either, they have mines in place that can detect tunnelers and explode and bury them.
It's real simple, if you don't try to sneak over that border you won't get sniped or step on a mine.
What's wrong with that concept?
Would you, personally try to sneak into an area where there was a good possibility that a sniper would get you in his sights?
I know I wouldn't!
They wouldn't have to shoot too many of them before they got the message, would they?
And I sure as hell wouldn't try to walk through a minefield!
And, it's not up to us to create jobs, housing, medical care or anything else for Mexican Nationals. That's a job for their govt, or not, I really don't care.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/25/2008 12:37:30 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Cagey18)

Post #: 45

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 1:00:36 PM

Cagey18

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Cagey, how about minefields?
Look at how effective *our mines* are on S. Korea's border.
NO-ONE gets in across those minefields!
And they can't tunnel under them either, they have mines in place that can detect tunnelers and explode and bury them.
It's real simple, if you don't try to sneak over that border you won't get sniped or step on a mine.
What's wrong with that concept?
Would you, personally try to sneak into an area where there was a good possibility that a sniper would get you in his sights?
I know I wouldn't!
They wouldn't have to shoot too many of them before they got the message, would they?
And I sure as hell wouldn't try to walk through a minefield!

Wikipedia expresses the problems succinctly:

quote:

Land mines are controversial because they remain dangerous after the conflict in which they were deployed, killing and injuring civilians and rendering land impassable and unusable for decades.

Not to mention that this risk of death would apply equally to US citizens as to Mexican citizens.

quote:

The International Campaign to Ban Landmines has sought to prohibit their use, culminating in the 1997 Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-Personnel Mines and on their Destruction, known informally as the Ottawa Treaty.

As of 2007, a total of 158 nations have agreed to the treaty. Thirty-seven countries have not agreed to the ban, including China, Israel, Pakistan, India, Russia and the United States.

Glad to hear we're in such august company.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And, it's not up to us to create jobs, housing, medical care or anything else for Mexican Nationals. That's a job for their govt, or not, I really don't care.

That would be TH's suggestion, not mine.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 46

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 1:33:28 PM

rachel529

Posts: 197
Joined: 4/29/2008
Status: offline

uncle nasty is the shit. thank you for putting out irrefutable facts. people could try to argue mine, but they are true too. notice how the prodrugcontrol folks are ignoring our posts? i love it...

(in reply to Cagey18)

Post #: 47

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 1:38:38 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

So you're an advocate of this then? You like the idea of Federal snipers picking off Mexicans?

Actually, I'm in favor of more relaxed immigration laws.

However, if immigration restrictions are what is desired, a few well positioned snipers would be an extremely cost-effective means of enforcing them. One bullet is cheaper than one detention cell.

_____________________________

(in reply to Cagey18)

Post #: 48

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 2:34:21 PM

UncleNasty

Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rachel529

uncle nasty is the shit. thank you for putting out irrefutable facts. people could try to argue mine, but they are true too. notice how the prodrugcontrol folks are ignoring our posts? i love it...

Thank you for the kudos rachel. But I would prefer they engage instead of ignore or go mute. And engage in meaningful discussion, not battle. On this issue, as on many others, it is as much a case of if one party or the other looses then all parties loose.

I say again that addiction is terrible, and extremely destructive. I feel for anyone who has been effected personally in any way.

One handed Uncle Nasty

(in reply to rachel529)

Post #: 49

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 3:27:10 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

Your response was very well thought and well written, Uncle Nasty.
I have a large amount of experience dealing with both alcoholics and drug addicts from extended family members, my high school and neighborhood and my previous career path. Your sentiments reflect my own.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to UncleNasty)

Post #: 50

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 4:02:37 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

Land mines are controversial because they remain dangerous after the conflict in which they were deployed, killing and injuring civilians and rendering land impassable and unusable for decades.

That's no longer applicable.
They have mines today that are "programable", by time, location, use etc plus they have gps so they bear no resemblance to the old "bury and forget" mines of decades ago to which the wikipedia article was reffering to.
Mines are one of the most effective tools for "area denial" whether it be on sea or land.
We could also use high voltage electricity but then someone would be complaining about the coyotes!
The best thing to do is to use mines, people will complain anyway no matter what we use so screw them.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Cagey18)

Post #: 51

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 4:36:35 PM

UncleNasty

Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline

I wasn't aware that mine technology had progressed to this extent popeye. Thank you for pointing it out.

I'm really not a fan of shooting people who by crossing the border are merely trying to improve their lot in life. But then I'm not a fan of illegals having the negative impacts they do on our society and economy. I agree that the better life they seek is something they should petitioning their own government for.

One handed Uncle Nasty

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 52

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 4:42:57 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

Great post, UncleNasty.

this slave would only add one thing.

Anslinger had an agenda that the 75th Congress was more than willing to buy into. as much as she blames Anslinger, she has to blame the Congress for going along with his bullshit and creating the "reefer madness" that folks buy into, even today.

Not ONE of the members of the 75th Congress objected to Anslinger's Congressional testimony regarding stories about "coloreds" with big lips, luring white women with jazz music and marijuana.

He also pushed on Congress as a factual statement that about 50% of all violent crimes committed in the U.S. were committed by Spaniards, Mexican-Americans, Latin-Americans, Filippinos, African-Americans and Greeks, and these crimes could be traced directly to marijuana. (From Anslinger's own records given to Pennsylvania State University, ref: Li Cata murders. etc.)

(in reply to UncleNasty)

Post #: 53

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 4:53:51 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

Some excellent posts, Nasty. Here is one of the best sources of the history of racist drug laws. http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/history/first12000/11.htm

This is an outstanding article on the origins of Prohibition.
http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/12/22/whyIsMarijuanaIllegal.html

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to UncleNasty)

Post #: 54

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 5:06:44 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

Hello beth,

That is some important information I have not seen before. Do you have a link for that?

Thanks,

Ven

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 55

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 7:08:02 PM

Cagey18

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

Land mines are controversial because they remain dangerous after the conflict in which they were deployed, killing and injuring civilians and rendering land impassable and unusable for decades.

That's no longer applicable.
They have mines today that are "programable", by time, location, use etc plus they have gps so they bear no resemblance to the old "bury and forget" mines of decades ago to which the wikipedia article was reffering to.
Mines are one of the most effective tools for "area denial" whether it be on sea or land.
We could also use high voltage electricity but then someone would be complaining about the coyotes!
The best thing to do is to use mines, people will complain anyway no matter what we use so screw them.

And yet we still have the risk of death applying equally to US citizens as to Mexican citizens. Unless your smart mines can detect ethnicity as well.

Not to mention the ENORMOUS problem of worsened international relations by the horrendous idea of blowing up human beings (men, women, and children) who dare step onto US soil. Or picking them off with sniper fire.

The Chimp-in-Chief has done enough damage in that area; we certainly don't need to make it worse.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 56

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 9:34:45 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18
Do I understand you correctly?

1. That we should have a policy of killing/shooting unarmed people for crossing the border?

2. That you think such a policy can be made "legal"? (not to mention the international implications, and I'm not talking about just Mexico)

I'm not advocating such a policy or practice, Cagey, only saying it would work. Much like breaking a window on your car to get to the keys locked inside.

But legal? An official Presidential finding that illegal crossings of our southern border presented a clear and present danger to national security would do the trick. For long enough anyway.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Cagey18)

Post #: 57

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 9:42:45 PM

UncleNasty

Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Great post, UncleNasty.

this slave would only add one thing.

Anslinger had an agenda that the 75th Congress was more than willing to buy into. as much as she blames Anslinger, she has to blame the Congress for going along with his bullshit and creating the "reefer madness" that folks buy into, even today.

Not ONE of the members of the 75th Congress objected to Anslinger's Congressional testimony regarding stories about "coloreds" with big lips, luring white women with jazz music and marijuana.

He also pushed on Congress as a factual statement that about 50% of all violent crimes committed in the U.S. were committed by Spaniards, Mexican-Americans, Latin-Americans, Filippinos, African-Americans and Greeks, and these crimes could be traced directly to marijuana. (From Anslinger's own records given to Pennsylvania State University, ref: Li Cata murders. etc.)

Thanks Mnb.

I didn't know that about old Harry but I'm not surprised.

I am constantly reminded of the truth in a quote of Teddy Roosevelt:

"When they call the role in the Senate the Senators don't know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.'"

One handed Uncle Nasty

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 58

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 10:18:55 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

Land mines are controversial because they remain dangerous after the conflict in which they were deployed, killing and injuring civilians and rendering land impassable and unusable for decades.

That's no longer applicable.
They have mines today that are "programable", by time, location, use etc plus they have gps so they bear no resemblance to the old "bury and forget" mines of decades ago to which the wikipedia article was reffering to.
Mines are one of the most effective tools for "area denial" whether it be on sea or land.
We could also use high voltage electricity but then someone would be complaining about the coyotes!
The best thing to do is to use mines, people will complain anyway no matter what we use so screw them.

And yet we still have the risk of death applying equally to US citizens as to Mexican citizens. Unless your smart mines can detect ethnicity as well.

Not to mention the ENORMOUS problem of worsened international relations by the horrendous idea of blowing up human beings (men, women, and children) who dare step onto US soil. Or picking them off with sniper fire.

The Chimp-in-Chief has done enough damage in that area; we certainly don't need to make it worse.

Cagey, "worsening international relations" with who, Mexico?
Who cares?
Mexico is not a friend of the U.S.
It took them two weeks to decide if they should join in condemning the 9/11 attack!
Gee, a lot to "discuss" there eh?
And yes, there may be a few idiots that get blown up after they cross a razor wire fence and signs that say "MINEFIELD AHEAD!"
Some may do it as a "protest", deliberately. Maybe they'll be on youtube!
"DUUUUUUDE,..... that guy got splattered!"
"He was like,....... there... then he was like,.....NOT there!"
"Gnarley man!" "Hit Replay."
The fact of the matter is that they are extremely effective.
They have gps devices imbedded in them so that the U.S. Army doesn't "lose" mines anymore.
And they can turn on or turn off sections of a minefield if they want on a control board.
Look at S. Korea's border. Have you heard about any problems with the U.S. mines that are there?
Right now "international relations" are going against Mexico, Central American countries and S. American countries *because* of their lack of controlling their citizens from sneaking into foreign countries.
How do you say, "you're not welcome here" in Spanish?
But, I really don't care what people in foreign countries "think."
The people in those countries need to realise that sneaking into a foreign country is not an option.
Bush certainly did do a lot of damage in that area!
Bush did *nothing* about it. (His rich buddies made too much money from it! Meanwhile, the wages of Americans got pushed down.)
Securing our borders is one of the most basic duties of our govt.
If govt. either can't or as in Bush's case, "won't" take care of that duty then they lose the confidence of The People!
Bush will go down as one of our worst presidents and not enforcing our immigration laws and securing our borders are some of the reasons why.
Obama has already stated that we are a country of laws and that those laws will be enforced.
I think people will be pleasantly surprised at President Obama's resolve in this area after an 8 year drought.
Now that's refreshing!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/25/2008 10:41:07 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Cagey18)

Post #: 59

RE: Escalating drug wars in Mexico and the US border - 11/25/2008 10:36:39 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

Addiction is a bitch.

      Ain't it the truth...

    Rehab isn't the magic pill though. Unless an individual actually wants to quit, rehab is a waste of time and money. And if they want it, education and appropriate support are great, but the 12 Step model is far from mandatory. We are going to have to acknowledge too, that some percentage of people are going to live and die, high.

     The question needs to be, which does more harm? The foul smelling junkie in a doorway, or the money flowing straight to terrorists from the Afghan poppy fields? (We should have burned those when we had the chance, and killed two birds with one rock.)    The joint that circles a living room, or the disintegration of the Fourth Amendment allowing the cops to kick in the door on a hearsay warrant? A twenty-something guy forming and trimming traffic delineators in a complete doper haze, or billions of dollars flowing into a criminal underground to keep him supplied?

     The War on Drugs is a failure. More harm than good. And there is a lot of money to be made at a time we could use it.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to UncleNasty)

Post #: 60

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