RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (Full Version)

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GreedyTop -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 8:14:03 AM)

in teh 6 weeks I spent in Holland, I'd have to say smoking is a popular pasttime, as is drinking.

England, Paris, and Luxembourg...same thing.

US? I think most of the smokers have gone underground.  Drinking is still openly popular (prohibition didnt work too well....)




RealityLicks -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 8:15:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin


The notion that smokers take more out of the system is largely a false notion, perhaps it is they in reality only take out what they have paid extra in, they by the higher taxes paid through their choice have paid for their care.


If I understand your tortuous prose correctly, I suggest a quick session on your homemade abacus might prove this to be nonsense.  And I'm glad of it.  Because taxation should not be a simple zero sum equation where you are only entitled to receive what you have deposited, like a child's piggy bank.  As Marx said "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". 

But that doesn't mean you take the piss by getting wankered on Friday night, glassing your Lynx-scented love rival, then stacking your Nissan Micra while three of your mates moon an OAP at the bus stop.




RealityLicks -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 8:17:06 AM)

Roken is dodelijk




LadyEllen -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 8:21:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

For general consumption -

Hmmm, what to spend a tenner on..?  That's the wrong question.  I think the VAT cut is a sound idea.  If you had a warehouse full of 1000 sofas that you wanted to retail over Christmas and were looking at having to discount heavily just to shift them, you'd be grateful that the Gov had opted to share some of the burden.  Suddenly, you don't need to let staff go just to balance the books and those staff can go out and spend with others, too.  The retail sector is receiving invaluable help via this move.



Really? The difference between survival and bankruptcy is 2.5% for these firms? The same firms that offer "two for one, half price, interest free credit over five years and nothing to pay for 12 months" are that close to going under? (clue; theyre making a killing on the goods - bought from India and China for next to nothing - which is why they can offer all that).

They (and retailers of all sorts) are already offering huge discounts from regular retail price - 2.5% is nothing compared to the discounts already given of 20, 30, 40% and more. 2.5% is unlikely to induce a buying frenzy of any sort if the discounts offered already have not.

Cashflow is where its at to survive this storm; assuming these firms have no purchase VAT - and they will be paying VAT on all they import, theyre getting a 2.5% reduction in their VAT payment which is very little help at all in terms of maintaining a positive cashflow.

Assuming you have purchase and sales VAT then the benefit depends on what your profit margin is. The higher your profit margin, the better your saving as a company on VAT. But we already know that profit margins are lower, because of all the discounts being offered.

If one had a 50% profit margin, then this benefits one's cashflow by £12-50 per £1000-00 worth of purchases / £1500-00 worth of sales (net VAT). One would be paying £75-00 to the exchequer in VAT instead of £87-50 on such a transaction. Lets say our turnover is £1 million per VAT quarter at such a profit margin; our VAT liability is now £75,000-00 rather than £87,500-00 - a saving in salary terms of £4167-00 per month, £500-00 of which is employers NI payments - a net roughly equivalent to 3 warehouse workers' wages; the three we already dismissed because sales have fallen off.

But if we're not making such a margin the arithmetic makes for far more dismal reading. And if we're offering extended no interest credit terms we're truly up the creek even before this VAT change - we still have to meet our quarterly VAT obligation at whatever rate, and with reduced sales we have no incoming cashflow with which to do that.

And then there's that bugbear that we invited in through our policy of exporting our manufacturing; foreign exchange rates. Given we're importing our retail wares in anything but Sterling, (and generally its USD thats used - against which Sterling has fallen markedly), any reduction in price we've given already by our own discounting and certainly any reduction in price we can offer by way of the 2.5% drop in VAT can be wiped out in an instant by the currency traders - and our profit margin (if we still have one after all our discounting) falls too - so reducing the benefit to us in cashflow terms of the 2.5% VAT reduction.

This is not invaluable help for anyone in short.

E




GreedyTop -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 8:25:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Roken is dodelijk


Roken werkt zeer verslavend; begin er niet mee

This does not mean that the warnings have any more effect there than they do anywhere else.  The warnings are NOT  a panacea for smoking.




Aneirin -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 8:31:14 AM)

Ok, what I  ask is, what if by some strange reason, we actually listened to our betters and we all quit smoking and drinking, so no tax revenue, how big would the hole be in the treasury coffers ? Could we survive, run a struggling NHS with such a hole, or would taxation have to be found elsewhere ? And if it is found elsewhere, where would it come from ?

This is a real question, that you might in your wisdom be able to answer, where would the hammer of increased taxation fall to make up the deficit caused by the hedonists who now are towing the line ? What part of socially accepted society will feel the pinch, what social group will become the new pariah ?

Failing that, could you name something which we currently have that would in all realism be acceptable to cut out to save money and ease the hole in the treasury created by the drinkers and smokers going good ?





RealityLicks -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 8:35:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

our VAT liability is now £75,000-00 rather than £87,500-00 - a saving in salary terms of £4167-00 per month, £500-00 of which is employers NI payments - a net roughly equivalent to 3 warehouse workers' wages



Three warehousemen's jobs saved is a highly desirable result in my book, especially when achieved with a saving to the public.  Thanks for putting in the grunt work.




RealityLicks -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 8:39:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Ok, what I  ask is, what if by some strange reason, we actually listened to our betters and we all quit smoking and drinking, so no tax revenue, how big would the hole be in the treasury coffers ? Could we survive, run a struggling NHS with such a hole, or would taxation have to be found elsewhere ? And if it is found elsewhere, where would it come from ?




Oi, did you spill my pint?

The same arguments were made in favour of the British opium trade.  The country survived.




LadyEllen -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 8:48:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

our VAT liability is now £75,000-00 rather than £87,500-00 - a saving in salary terms of £4167-00 per month, £500-00 of which is employers NI payments - a net roughly equivalent to 3 warehouse workers' wages



Three warehousemen's jobs saved is a highly desirable result in my book, especially when achieved with a saving to the public.  Thanks for putting in the grunt work.


Way to go with the selective quoting!

You're not a government minister by any chance? They have this annoying habit of ignoring and alternately accepting whatever suits at the time too.

Assuming those 3 workers are still in their jobs as sales have fallen off over recent months (a significant "if"), then given the rest of my post its unlikely my sales are going to increase sufficiently to justify the expense - theyre out the door I'm afraid, I run a business not a charity.

And if theyre gone already, a similar scenario exists - unless my sales increase sufficiently, I'm not going to be taking anyone on.

This is about sales and cashflow - and nothing about this 2.5% reduction in VAT will make a damned bit of difference to either.

E




Aneirin -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 8:50:48 AM)

Britain was a different country then, the populace are now less inclined to believe their ' betters ', in fact less inclined to believe they have 'betters'.

What happned in the past is no indication that it will happen again, times change. So given the past is irrelevant and the fact that times change, I ask again what is the most efficient saving that can be made or what would be taxed to take up the deficit ?




RealityLicks -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 8:53:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Roken is dodelijk


Roken werkt zeer verslavend; begin er niet mee

This does not mean that the warnings have any more effect there than they do anywhere else.  The warnings are NOT  a panacea for smoking.



Greedy Top is hot!




meatcleaver -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 8:54:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

MC, I have no idea how the Dutch collect their figures or whether Dutch people smoke or drink less than they do here.  I was talking about the rationale of moving the tax burden away from economic activity and onto areas which health professionals tell us we should prevent the young from gaining easy entry. 



I was just pointing out that people with unhealthy life styles on average don't use up more resources than people with healthy life styles. The Dutch categorically burst that bubble. Even the NHS say most resources are taken up by people at the end of their life so even there there is circumstantial evidence to back up the Dutch report. Healthy people linger on longer, consuming more resources while unhealthy people tend to die quicker.

I think you will find the Dutch smoke far far more than the British and Dutch smokers are mounting a campaign to reintroduce smoking back into bars and there are many creative ways in which bars have got round the no smake law. At four pound for 50 grams, I think that is about 66% cheaper than smoking in Britain.

George Best got a liver transplant which most drinkers don't get but the number of transplants for liver desease through alcoholism is miniscule and probably not enough to effect the figures.




Aneirin -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 9:00:23 AM)

Currently tobacco, that is hand rolling tobacco, is circa £10 for 50 grammes




RealityLicks -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 9:01:24 AM)

Fair points but whilst ageing is unavoidable, the £2.7bn annual bill for drink-related illness isn't.




susie -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 10:46:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

For general consumption -


The fact that the VAT cut is being partly financed by raised duty on fags and booze is just sound fiscal sense.  Have you any idea what smokers and drinkers cost to look after when their bodies fall apart?  It's poor people, without private health insurance, who suffer most when they overdo these pleasures.  If they'd only fuck more and smoke less, they might be less inclined to bitch and moan so much.



I have never smoked in my life and hardly drink so I can't say I contribute much in the way of duty. I am however, currently costing the NHS a fortune in treatment first for skin cancer (I don't sit in the sun either) then for the resultant brain tumour. Regular treatment, therapy and scans all costing the NHS a pretty penny. Should I start drinking and smoking to contribute my measly duty to the coffers? 




philosophy -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 10:53:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

For general consumption -


The fact that the VAT cut is being partly financed by raised duty on fags and booze is just sound fiscal sense.  Have you any idea what smokers and drinkers cost to look after when their bodies fall apart?  It's poor people, without private health insurance, who suffer most when they overdo these pleasures.  If they'd only fuck more and smoke less, they might be less inclined to bitch and moan so much.



I have never smoked in my life and hardly drink so I can't say I contribute much in the way of duty. I am however, currently costing the NHS a fortune in treatment first for skin cancer (I don't sit in the sun either) then for the resultant brain tumour. Regular treatment, therapy and scans all costing the NHS a pretty penny. Should I start drinking and smoking to contribute my measly duty to the coffers? 


..sorry to hear about your troubles.......but no, you don't need to start drinking or smoking. As a UK ex-pat smoker, i'm just happy that some of the tax i paid is being used in a good cause...ie treating a nasty medical condition.




colouredin -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 10:55:56 AM)

People are scared about the economy, in the last week 5 people I have known have lost their jobs (one was with the cmpany for 16 years) in the past month I haveknown of at least three local businesses that have vanished meaning hundreds of people are out of work and there is no work anywhere, but having a nice christmas tree will solve all that.




susie -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 10:58:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

For general consumption -


The fact that the VAT cut is being partly financed by raised duty on fags and booze is just sound fiscal sense.  Have you any idea what smokers and drinkers cost to look after when their bodies fall apart?  It's poor people, without private health insurance, who suffer most when they overdo these pleasures.  If they'd only fuck more and smoke less, they might be less inclined to bitch and moan so much.



I have never smoked in my life and hardly drink so I can't say I contribute much in the way of duty. I am however, currently costing the NHS a fortune in treatment first for skin cancer (I don't sit in the sun either) then for the resultant brain tumour. Regular treatment, therapy and scans all costing the NHS a pretty penny. Should I start drinking and smoking to contribute my measly duty to the coffers? 


..sorry to hear about your troubles.......but no, you don't need to start drinking or smoking. As a UK ex-pat smoker, i'm just happy that some of the tax i paid is being used in a good cause...ie treating a nasty medical condition.


Thanks. Perhaps I should just go for the "fuck more" option although not sure that will help the economy much.




meatcleaver -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 11:33:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Fair points but whilst ageing is unavoidable, the £2.7bn annual bill for drink-related illness isn't.


The fact is an extensive study showed that on average people with an unhealthy life style don't take up more medical resources than people living so called healthy life styles. You've just got to get over it.

Car accidents take up more resources. Cars are the major cause of astma and respiratory illnesses. Why don't you campaign against cars.




philosophy -> RE: so Brits - what to spend your tenner on? (11/26/2008 11:39:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Thanks. Perhaps I should just go for the "fuck more" option although not sure that will help the economy much.


...oh i don't know.......the manufacturers of lube, condoms, leather restraints and dildoes will thank you i'm sure.....[:D]




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