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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 12:07:35 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

I'll think you'll find Frederick Engels didn't mind paying for Marx because he saw he was a genious

More like I found Engels a blithering idiot....


Well aside from insulting the 'messenger' (sponsor) who Engels was is meaningless. One could claim that all of the royalty and state support of the performing arts were idiots but we gained a lot of knowledge we wouldn't have but for those idiots.

Publishers were either in opposition or scared...

This doesn't paint a picture of a dependant loser:

http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/marx.html

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 12:12:55 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

This doesn't paint a picture of a dependant loser:

Yes it does.  It apologizes for his being a dependent loser by claiming some mythical "understanding" of society, but he sponged off Engels while writing stupid, vacuous, vapid, and basically wrong tripe.

Granted, Das Kapital does have some value as a footstool.  As reading material it's worthless.


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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 12:44:53 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

i dunno about out there in the real world but in academic land Marx has never not been in fashion. Its cool to be left wing as a student you have to know your fair share about Marx, the only people i remember having much of a dislike for him were feminists.

As we blog...much of what Marx predicted is being proved today and even in looking back and with the speculative exploitation and 'Marxism' of wall street.

While much of what he promoted namely collectivism...has failed.

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 4:41:19 PM   
Dargrim


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Status: offline 		I must admit my knowledge of both Marx and Smith is far from perfect, though no ones knowledge is ever perfect on any matter it seems, so I feel that my two penneth's worth is justified.

I think if were honest both systems Marxism and Unfetted Capitalism have both failed spectacularly, though both have their benefits, though both suffer fundamentally from one problem. People. In particular people's greed and desire for wealth and supposed power. Perhaps its time for a new economic system if we cant get the two systems to run well, in a Socialist System. Shock horror I said the word. Please though I have to ask why do so many buisness owners rally agianst Socialism, I mean it has the potential to boost commerce and trade fr beyond the reach of pure Capitalism. Simply because a Socialist government would have control of the basics, ie electricty, gas, water etc, and would not be aiming to make profit of these base amenities, meaning that the resources would cost less to get from the government, meaning individuals would have more money in their pockets, and companies would have less outgoings. working on the basis of a non-corrupt politician... unlikely but still. Just please say if I am wrong about my point there, and why?

I am glad to here the point that Labour is the only true wealth, rather amusingly my wealthy flat mate understands this, but I am still trying to educate my poor flatmate. I say poor, still has more then me lol. (inclded for some basis of referance) Anyhow where as Labour always has the same level of wealth, the product gets made, refined etc. Fiscal wealth only has meaning as long as other people associate meaning with it. I mean exactly what can you do with the coins, the little rectangles of paper, or even gold, unless someone else lets you? Maybe a system of Bartering would be better, more logical. Still America and the U.K. would hate it, as we have neither labour or resources any more, but would do africa an awful lot of good. Still hope to hear some interesting counter points.

Dargrim


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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 5:32:34 PM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Why do people keep quoting Adam Smith

Because his economic model is the one that works, as opposed to Marx's model, which is the one that doesn't.


I've been seeing more articles pointing out the weaknesses in his assumptions.  Why not come up with a newer model that accounts for a more modern financial system?  He didn't have a Federal Reserve, strange financial beasts like CDOs, etc. et al.

His words are not inscribed in stone, after all.

thornhappy

thornhappy

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 5:34:13 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Why not come up with a newer model that accounts for a more modern financial system? He didn't have a Federal Reserve, strange financial beasts like CDOs, etc. et al.

Better to jettison the strange financial beasts.  As one of my economics professors pointed out, "the love of money is the root of all evil."


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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 6:33:25 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Your economics text was 1 Timothy 6:10 ?

No wonder your ideas are ancient!



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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 6:40:32 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Your economics text was 1 Timothy 6:10 ?

Actually, I've read several economics texts.

The point my professor was making (which is a valid one) is that money is itself merely the medium of exchange--it is not of itself "wealth", does not of itself have "value", and making the acquisition of money as an economic goal is an inherently self-destructive path. 

What the financial sector has attempted to do is create value from money--is their failure at this really so surprising?


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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 6:44:17 PM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Why do people keep quoting Adam Smith

Because his economic model is the one that works, as opposed to Marx's model, which is the one that doesn't.



you may want to read up a bit on adam smith. I was surprised at how uncapitalist he really was.

and as far as marx is concened: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaah.


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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 6:51:36 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dargrim

Simply because a Socialist government would have control of the basics, ie electricty, gas, water etc, and would not be aiming to make profit of these base amenities, meaning that the resources would cost less to get from the government, meaning individuals would have more money in their pockets, and companies would have less outgoings. working on the basis of a non-corrupt politician... unlikely but still. Just please say if I am wrong about my point there, and why?



When we started selling off all these things in the 80s (thanks Tories) it worried me even then (in my teens) as to how it would pan out. As it has panned out, its a disaster and a disgrace. There is evident collusion and anti-competitive practices which no one dare act on for fear of the lights going out. Add in the strategic importance and its a crazy situation.

But to be honest, the government that had run these things before was really no better, just bad in a different way.

What if the utilities belonged to their customers? Not by way of transferable shares - for we would end up in the same situation as now with those in need of ready cash selling to investors and ownership becoming concentrated in a few hands - exactly what happened post privatisation. And not by way of the state ownership either - which is state ownership, not ownership by the customers. Can we not come up with some sort of scheme like that to make sure things are well run (customers having influence) and to curb the excesses of private ownership?

E

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/27/2008 1:05:29 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

I'll think you'll find Frederick Engels didn't mind paying for Marx because he saw he was a genious

More like I found Engels a blithering idiot....



That is a statement of ignorance, even from a capitalist that doesn't understand capitalism.

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/27/2008 1:15:44 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dargrim

Simply because a Socialist government would have control of the basics, ie electricty, gas, water etc, and would not be aiming to make profit of these base amenities, meaning that the resources would cost less to get from the government, meaning individuals would have more money in their pockets, and companies would have less outgoings. working on the basis of a non-corrupt politician... unlikely but still. Just please say if I am wrong about my point there, and why?



When we started selling off all these things in the 80s (thanks Tories) it worried me even then (in my teens) as to how it would pan out. As it has panned out, its a disaster and a disgrace. There is evident collusion and anti-competitive practices which no one dare act on for fear of the lights going out. Add in the strategic importance and its a crazy situation.

But to be honest, the government that had run these things before was really no better, just bad in a different way.



I would beg to differ. I remember underfunded British Rail and how it was derided but I bet every Brit that uses the train now would love good old British Rail, at least you could get to your destination at a resonable price and despite claims BR was alway late, its time keeping was better than train companies nowadays.

The real problem with state ownership in Britain was the British attitude of running things into the ground and not investing in the infrastructure. Look at continental railways, particularly French and German, they are state of the art. Last time I was in Britain I was going from London to Sheffield and I had to change train at Derby because the engine was fucked. I have spent years going all over Europe by train and never once come across something similar.

Ditto for everything else. The Brits as a nation don't like investing for the long term, in that way they are like the Americans. Profits today matter, we'll sort tomorrow out when we get there.

There are good and services better supplied by the private market but there is most definitely a place for state owned utilities and infrastructure.

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/28/2008 10:48:35 PM   
gumshoe


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Status: offline 		Hey Marxism isn't dead! It just smells like it.

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/28/2008 11:36:52 PM   
lucern


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Status: offline 		Ah, Marx emerges again.  A necro-post from 13 months ago shows a couple of recurring themes: a debate over the lasting value of Marx and the difference between what Marx wrote and what people associate with him.  I'll link and post my reply then as a reply now.  And yeah, some of this responds to other necro-posts, naturally. 

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1377660/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#1379016

quote:

...ask yourself what 'Marxism' entails.  Is it governmental or intellectual?  You'll find that there are Marxisms rather than a Marxism, and they're always philosophical or at least intellectual in nature.  Why?  Because aside from the Communist Manifesto, which was a (successful) attempt with Engels to write for a popular audience, the bulk of his writing had to do with social description and analysis.  Whether writers believed his writings or were critical, the debates about society he sparked are the lasting impact of Marx himself.

For those who are dismissing a writer they haven't read...well...you know the risk involved in that: you're going off of second hand information at best.  Marx is a 19th century colossus, writing at the cusp of the industrial revolution...essentially trying to work out a lot of new and complex problems all at once.  He also wrote an early and still viable critique of capitalism, though his attitude towards things he doesn't like is polemic.

As an anthropologist in training, I can tell you that Marx remains important intellectually.  Am I a Marxist, or do I even use Marx?  Nope.  Two words: historical determinism: you can't expect history to follow some pre-defined course.  There are indefensible claims and frankly archaic understandings throughout the work.  Gee, almost as if much of it had been written over 150 years ago.  Then again, why do I know anything about Marx if I don't even use him?  You have to understand Marx to understand social science literature because he's often there.  People debate him.  If you don't understand Marx, you won't understand them.  If you don't understand them, you won't understand the people using their work.  Nor will you understand entire branches or subdisciplines of some fields, who, because of their focus on the physical and social together, found Marx eminently useful. 

And finally, it's worth extracting Marx from things he didn't actually do.  Don't equate Marx with communism in practice - what he and Engels wrote was never enacted or, I'd argue, seriously attempted (not that I'd recommend it, mind you).  Nothing in the Manifesto or his other writings indicates that an enormous statist empire should emerge with a totalitarian ruler and tiny permanent elite.  That's actually specifically what Marx was worried about.  If you work to understand how ideas actually get used for practical reasons you'll have gone a long way to understanding humanity.


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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/28/2008 11:54:24 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gumshoe

Hey Marxism isn't dead! It just smells like it.


Read the post above by lucern and then go and get educated. Governments love people like you, they're so malleable so easy to manipulate.

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/29/2008 1:07:46 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: gumshoe

Hey Marxism isn't dead! It just smells like it.


Read the post above by lucern and then go and get educated. Governments love people like you, they're so malleable so easy to manipulate.
Lucern made an outstanding post.

The thing is, here in the "West", people who have never even seen a copy of Das Kapital  reject Marx's thinking out of hand. I think we should be a little more pragmatic and use ideas from whatever source. Germany has done a fantastic job (even though they are, in general, more Capitalist than people in the US and UK give them credit for). There, the unions have positions on the boards of corporations. There is input from the workers and their concerns are taken into account when formulating company strategy. They must be doing something right. They have more off time, work fewer hours, have a more relaxed work environment, and still have a 3% trade surplus (I have read; I haven't confirmed this number for myself, so I am naturally skeptical.  ).

We should look at Deutschland and learn how they have such a high standard of living without being 60-hour-per-week "professionals". We should look to France and see how they can pay for Doctors' housecalls and still spend only half of what we spend. (I feel blessed. My BCBS only went up from $200 to $250 last month, and it's only going to $282 come January 1.  )(that is another rant entirely )  There's a lot we can learn from other countries.

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/29/2008 2:05:12 AM   
tweedydaddy


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Status: offline 		Graucho was a lot more fun, and wiser.

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/29/2008 8:33:01 AM   
gumshoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Read the post above by lucern and then go and get educated.

So anyone who doesn't believe in Marxism is uneducated?
To me Marxism is just another exercise in state failure.

quote:


Governments love people like you, they're so malleable so easy to manipulate.

Really, how do you know that I'm malleable (read gullible) thus easy to manipulate?

Did you know they are liars, damn liars and politicians? Several million people do and I'm one of them. Are you?



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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/29/2008 8:48:39 AM   
celticlord2112


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I think we should be a little more pragmatic and use ideas from whatever source.

There is nothing pragmatic about the ideas of a moron who drew all the wrong conclusions from his half-assed studies of both history and economics.


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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/29/2008 8:57:01 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gumshoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Read the post above by lucern and then go and get educated.

So anyone who doesn't believe in Marxism is uneducated?
To me Marxism is just another exercise in state failure.

quote:


Governments love people like you, they're so malleable so easy to manipulate.

Really, how do you know that I'm malleable (read gullible) thus easy to manipulate?

Did you know they are liars, damn liars and politicians? Several million people do and I'm one of them. Are you?



Marx didn't believe in Marxism. To quote Marx 'I am not a Marxist.'  Marx was a philosopher, you intellectually engage with his ideas, you don't believe in him. Ideas create ideas. Marx like all good philosophers, with his thoughts and analysis, sets off a chain reaction.

Someone who is stupid enough to say he doesn't believe in Marxism will be stupid enough to say they don't believe Platoism, Decartesism, Jesusism, Sartreism. etc.

I'm not a Christian but I wouldn't dismiss the purported ideas of Jesus out of hand and by the way, like Marx wasn't a Marxisy, Jesus wasn't a Christian.

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