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Privacy and a little history - 12/25/2005 10:03:03 AM

JohnWarren

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Given the current state of attack the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution (The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.) seems to be under.

I spent a little time thinking about the past. After all, we’ve all heard “Since 9-11, things are different.” Are they really?

Let’s look at what this country has faced in its past. When the amendment was adopted, we had just finished what most people had considered an impossibility, a set of colonies breaking off from the most powerful empire in the world.

Not only did England still have designs on us, France, our ally of convenience in the revolution, saw the northern colonies as perfect springboards to take back Canada which had once been their colony. Added to this, the association that made up the United States was delicate. A number of would-be rulers were maneuvering to break off sections that they could rule as their own fiefdoms.

Yet, the people running this country felt that “the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects” was more important than the temporary gain they might obtain by being able to rummage at will looking for treason.

In the mid-1800, the country was torn apart. Brother literally fought brother. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus. Both sides fielded organized groups of spies. Somehow the Fourth survived.

Fast forward a few years, Nazi German and its ally, Japan, faced us with huge war machines on opposite sides of the world. Ships, armies, aerial armadas were arrayed against us. The term “fifth column” was on everyone’s lips and German spies, assisted by German-born American citizens, had landed on our shores. Public pronouncements on both sides made it clear that losing the war meant that the United States would vanish. The government found time to go to judges and present “probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation” before searching or wiretapping.

Now we are faced with a group of living-Luddite, religious fanatics possessing no army, no navy and capable of only killing at a rate that would have gotten the commandant of Triblinka fired for incompetence and NOW we have to junk our privacy?

It’s a tragedy when Americans, or anyone else dies, but if we only learned a single thing from Vietnam, let it be that it is possible to win every battle and lose the war. In this case, the war is what makes American great, the freedoms we all enjoy and were purchased for us at a terrible price over the last 200 years.

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RE: Privacy and a little history - 12/25/2005 11:40:53 AM

DesertRat

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If we willingly sacrifice our privacy and our freedom, if we become a people that endorses abuse and torture, if we let ourselves be callous towards the killing of innocent civilians in our "war on terror", then we have handed over an easy victory to our cheesy enemies. The attack on the World Trade Center was a great tragedy, to be sure. But what if we, as a nation, had mourned appropriately and then shrugged it off and gone about our business? What if we'd accepted the sympathy and support extended to us by the rest of the world and shown them we were deserving of that, rather than bullying everyone with our "those who are not with us are against us" mentality?

The present administration cares more about the bottom lines of big corporations than it does for the safety of the American people. It cares about manipulating public opinion without actually doing anything beneficial. We are no safer now than we were before 9/11, but we are less secure in our persons, and it is our own government that threatens our security.

Bob

< Message edited by DesertRat -- 12/25/2005 11:41:48 AM >

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RE: Privacy and a little history - 12/25/2005 12:09:18 PM

Lyku

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

If we willingly sacrifice our privacy and our freedom, if we become a people that endorses abuse and torture

So this becomes bondage country??

On a serious note, since 9/11...in my opinion, things have changed slightly. Living in Buffalo, I live near the Peace Bridge. Since the event and another event at the Peace Bridge, security has been tight. Even went to Canada with an ex last Christmas and was stopped and inspected going there and back because my forms of ID were not enough, compared to before the events, you could cross without showing your drivers license. That was my big example, please do not crush it like Godzilla, but here's the point. In my opinion, yes, things have changed. Have they changed drastically, no. Why? Huge, drastic change scares people. CHANGE BAD, ARGHH!!!! Anyways, from how I see it, things are changing, slowly but steadily, but they are changing. But things always change. Hell...watch an episode of "Leave it to Beaver", then look at your family. If you feel your family is the same, I have no more words for you, but if you are normal (or abnormal =) ) You'll realize that we are ever changing. Our flow of change is just in the direction of the new, larger changes, so it seems almost overlooked.

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RE: Privacy and a little history - 12/25/2005 1:30:17 PM

candystripper

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i'm 52 years old; i remember the Cuban missle crisis; i remember practicing hiding under my desk in the event of nuclear holocaust. i knew people were building bomb cellars and stocking them with enough food for 2 years; somehow the magic number for safely reemgering into earth's atmosphere after a nuclear detonation. i remember the famous clock, maintained (i think) by the AMA, showing the minutes left before nuclear war. Watching the pointers move forward and backward on that dial.

And yes, i remember Vietnam; 50,000 soliders killed and a million Vietnamese..and the disturbing thought that North Vietnam still has American prisoners. i look at Afganistan and Iraq and wonder how the situation differs from Vietnam; there is no end-game and the guerillas will never stop killing.

As i understand it, Congress recently enlongated the Patriot Act, whch is the most devastating piece of legislation from the point of view of individual rights. On the other hand, what will Bush do legally that Hoover did not do illegally during the Vietnam War?

i look at the prisoners in the Guantanemo Bay prision and wonder what is the difference between them and the herding of Japanese-Americans into concentration camps during WW II? As i understand it, every prisioner is a suspicious Arab-American. All grabbed up immediately after 9/11; not collected after an investigation into any individual's activities. Seems their crime was being Arab-American, period. Just like Japanese-Americans.

Will we survive and reclaim our rights? i cannot be sure; people seem to have awoken to the abusive use of civil forfeiture by law enforcement but the response seems to be to scale back on forfeitures rather than change the law. i suspect if a majority Americans were annoyed about fourth amendment violations there would be the same reaction -- to use the Patriot Act more judiciously rather than to change the law.

What a sorry state of affairs.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 12/25/2005 2:07:34 PM >

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RE: Privacy and a little history - 12/25/2005 4:17:47 PM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

Now we are faced with a group of living-Luddite, religious fanatics possessing no army, no navy and capable of only killing at a rate that would have gotten the commandant of Triblinka fired for incompetence and NOW we have to junk our privacy?

{Bait} I’m not saying for one moment that some of the current policies/thinking isn’t rooted in the audaciousness of fire and brimstone. However, it’s truly my feeling that in large part, the real intrusiveness we are now experiencing is purposely being cloaked by a very secular oligarchy who desperately wants world dominance/control.

After all, history tells us for the most part, that fundamentalism delivered from the right strongly carries with it a certain sense of autonomy and independence from the government. Most of the super-religious, right-wing people I know, despise these intrusive policies just as much as the most hardcore of civil libertarians.

Things like the Patriot act, were not derived from religious fanatics, but instead, inspired by lawyers, judges and autocratic politicians vying for more control.

I know…. most don’t believe their government is that diabolical, but that’s my take! Wer're all frogs in a pot of water, and the temprature is slowly rising. HAR!

Merry Christmas!

- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 12/25/2005 4:28:07 PM >

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RE: Privacy and a little history - 12/25/2005 6:08:58 PM

veronicaofML

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well...you have all said what i wanted to say........

and i too...am 52...so i remember it all...going through the 50's and now i am thrown into the decade of 2000's........i never EVER thought i would live..to see...2001........and we are not THAT far from 2010........

i but hope you all had as nice of a holiday...day...........that you could.

take care

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RE: Privacy and a little history - 12/25/2005 6:41:56 PM

mnottertail

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My name is Ron Melby, I am a computer programmer when I find workd, a fathere of 3 daughters, a drunk, a ne'er do well, a human and born and raised as an american citizen. I was in the army and also in the SDS (holy christ, it takes all kinda people to make the world), I can say that regardless of FRENCH indo-china, Sen. McCarthy and all the rest........

This country is strong enough to stand a few communists in the government, and I thought I never would have had to go this far; but now I guess I will, a couple of Muslims, a couple Jews...perhaps a radical or two, maybe an anarchist if it don't somehow make us less American.........

Until you have seen the flourescense of somebodies head coming unraveled, you ain't quite tasted a beer or drank coca-cola; now have you.............

It better be worth it.................

at the risk of many of you vomiting on your shoes...........
I had a friend who's name was Tom..........he lives on a rock.........

It had better be goddamn worth it and there aint nobody here who is worth it, because you gotta visit this shit on your sons and daughters....

You as americans have been in existance for 230 years, fuck this it's the holidays......give you 300 ok? As you may or may not give a fuck, until around world war one (the war to end all wars) most countries on the planet had been around a couple years more........

Now, you bring me the head of Osama Bin Lauden.........

You Fuckin Z A!!!! Show it on the evening news, I will hang it on my fence in my yard as a taunt and a hiss to all them other dictators, so they don't sneak in my yard..............

The war on terrorism is wholly without use........... You fuck around with a couple guys in Gitmo or Abu Grabe or whatever and whine cause they are hanging around two or three years without a mouthpiece.

Grab 'em by the nuts with a vice grip.........consider it breakfast, those are the guys I wanna have a word with..........and if you ain't got the guts to give them an earnest talking to................

I had a friend named Tom................

Be sure what the fuck you are doing.

Sincerely as I can be,
Ron
I can never cease to be amazed by this asswipe.

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RE: Privacy and a little history - 12/25/2005 10:49:36 PM

veronicaofML

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mnottertail;
===============

ach du lieber....und mein gott!

i know we are all a bit tense as of recent.....
and yeah,,,ya got the right to vent...

so i hope ya get a deep breath and count 10.

slow down, relax...

we are all with ya on this,.,,at least "I" am anyway.....

take care
best wishes for ya in 2006

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RE: Privacy and a little history - 12/26/2005 6:26:34 AM

candystripper

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veronicaofML, i did not spend my day wisely. i allowed words on a screen to upset me; on the "Monogamy" and "Straight Woman Blues" threads. My kid won't be here for a couple of weeks; and we'll celebrate Xmas then. This was the first Dec 25th my kid and i have spent apart....but that is part of aging. Kids become adults with lives of their own. i'm very proud of her.

So today i intend to swipe back some of my dignity and worth, as well as do a bit of housekeeping.

You're a good friend and i thank Gawd we met. <Big Cyber Hug>

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 12/26/2005 6:32:49 AM >

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RE: Privacy and a little history - 12/26/2005 6:31:55 AM

candystripper

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