RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia?

RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (Full Version)

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celticlord2112 -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 10:42:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf How would this help with stability and eliminating piracy? Not that it should not be done, just that I do not see the connection between the two. quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol A good start would be to stop pillaging fish and other natural resources off the coast from one of the poorest countries on the planet. PS: just a suggestion, since the question is to address the root of the problem. There is no connection. Pirates make millions in return for a few weeks "work" on the high seas. Fishing doesn't bring anywhere close to that return on investment. Competition (legal or otherwise--and I'm sure there's ample of both) from other fishing fleets may very well have catalyzed the Somalis turning to piracy, but it's not what keeps them there. Two broad choices to end the piracy in the short run: raise the stakes or lower the return. In practical terms, make the taking of a ship a highly dangerous and generally lethal gambit, or refuse to pay the ransoms (which means sacrificing a few crews along the way). Over the long haul, the question is far murkier. Somalia is a nation in name only, and has been such for decades (if indeed it ever was anything else). The society is a rather loosely stitched-together patchwork of clans/tribes. The Somalis might accept and acknowledge some form of confederacy among the various groups, but the warlords (modern day clan chieftains) have little reason to surrender much power to any central government--and the absence of a credible central government condemns any effort to rein in piracy by appealing to standards of law and ethical behavior.

thishereboi -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 10:43:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol A good start would be to stop pillaging fish and other natural resources off the coast from one of the poorest countries on the planet. PS: just a suggestion, since the question is to address the root of the problem. That's right kittin, it's not those poor pirates fault. They were forced into this life by the evil fisherman. Maybe we should take the money they are going to use to bail out the big 3 and send it to the pirates. Then they can buy faster boats.

DomKen -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 10:45:18 AM)
First illegal fishing of Somali waters does seem to be one cause of this but the "failed state" situation in Somalia plays a larger role. However piracy in international waters cannot be tolerated. A larger international presence operating in a coordinated fashion to creat a safe shipping corridor with a complete exclusion of fishing vessels from the corridor will put a quick and definitive end to the issue.

kittinSol -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 10:46:59 AM)
If all you want is easy answers and bogus solutions ("nuke 'em!", "shoot 'em!") then your'e on the right path. But guess what? Applying your comfortable western world moral notions to the situation is artificial, and simplistic. Enjoy the movie.

xBullx -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 10:48:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: So what are the options for containing what is occuring in Somalia? Put a 20mm minigun on all ships crossing Somali waters. Pirates vs 3000 rounds per minute.... Hmmmm...... Do I smell a business opportunity... Big Game Sporting Cruises...

kdsub -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 10:51:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Somali pirates tell their side. When there's lawlessness, desperation and hunger, you could argue that men have to do what they have to do... and that they'd be spineless sheep for letting others dictate that they should starve and stay humble. I never figured you for a guppy...can't you see through that crap? The world has tried to help them over and over again ...they are not poor helpless victims...they are a band of thieves high on drugs and greed. The pirates are no more providing for the people then the mafia is for Queens. Butch

thishereboi -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 10:52:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol If all you want is easy answers and bogus solutions ("nuke 'em!", "shoot 'em!") then your'e on the right path. But guess what? Applying your comfortable western world moral notions to the situation is artificial, and simplistic. Enjoy the movie. Where did I say nuke em or shoot em (although arming the ships in the area does sound like a good idea)? They are attacking other ships, do you think maybe we should give em a big hug and say gosh we are so sorry your having a bad day? What does that have to do with western world moral notions? You want to feel sorry for the poor little pirates, go ahead, but the more I think about it, the more I think shooting them might be a good idea. Then maybe they will find out that if you point a gun at someone, you might get one pointed right back at ya.

FRSguy -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 10:56:32 AM)
The way I understand and my opinion is that they are somewhat justified in there actions. They were taken ww2 then dumped by the Brits and left in a shambles since the 60’s. They have fought war after war with neighboring nations and are split into several different groups fighting for political control of their country. The U.N. was kicked out because they felt that the U.N. was siding giving control of their country to a country that they were previously at war with. There is virtually no education, no real services available to these people with the exception of the pirate villages where children get to eat, go to school, have plumbing, communications and so on. Although crime is almost never fully justifiable I cant help but feel as though United Nations and its members have a responsibility to help nations that have suffered the fallout of wars and there populations left to rot on the wayside because of the U.N. “natural evolution of government” to take place. I can certainly understand where someone could say that the U.N. has made peacekeeping attempts however the poison is truly in the details. Sharing your government with an enemy of decades would not be considered an option for any nation. From what I understand they are being extremely nonviolent under the circumstances of what they are doing and hostages are treated (again from what I have heard) fairly well for hostages with their captives being provided with even special foods shipped to suit there needs under some circumstances. I kind of view as a cultural cry for help under these circumstances…. You know people just trying to survive while they watch huge cargo ships and rich laden tankers drift bye and that the global community has a somewhat disgusting reaction to it. As in as if a homeless person was begging at the doors of a shelter for food and a wealthy person kicking them because of it as they walked out the door. Because of Somalia’s rich oil reserves that have yet to be taped it could be an extremely wealthy nation however it appears as though they will see none of it. The way I feel is that I don’t support it… however I can understand it.

celticlord2112 -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 10:56:40 AM)
quote: Do I smell a business opportunity... Big Game Sporting Cruises... Only until pirates get declared an endangered species.....

kittinSol -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 11:03:57 AM)
Finding a solution comes from understanding a problem; if you think that I condone violence, and agree with piracy, and try to justify it, you are mistaken. Do I agree with your bombastic idea that 'we' should kill 'them'? Nope, because unlike you, I don't think in terms of 'us and them'. I don't know who 'we' are in this conflict: certainly, I'm not part of 'you'.

slvemike4u -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 11:05:27 AM)
Ahh,its so nice to have our Kittin back......

kittinSol -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 11:06:14 AM)
Hush, child. You'll get us all in trouble [8D] .

thishereboi -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 11:13:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Ahh,its so nice to have our Kittin back...... [sm=agree.gif] [sm=alien.gif]

RealityLicks -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 11:13:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub The world has tried to help them over and over again ...they are not poor helpless victims...they are a band of thieves high on drugs and greed. The pirates are no more providing for the people then the mafia is for Queens. By your rationale, the world should cut economic ties with the US, since the mafia still operate in Queens and you have not stopped them.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 11:16:13 AM)
My understanding is that the country is in chaos, and has been so for almost 2 decades. So are you saying that if the poaching of the fish were to stop, that piracy would decline? I read the link, and then read some more stories on the pirates, and none of the ones identified seem to have anything to do with fishing. I am still having difficulty in understanding how it will help the situation I linked to in my OP. quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Finding a solution comes from understanding a problem; if you think that I condone violence, and agree with piracy, and try to justify it, you are mistaken. Do I agree with your bombastic idea that 'we' should kill 'them'? Nope, because unlike you, I don't think in terms of 'us and them'. I don't know who 'we' are in this conflict: certainly, I'm not part of 'you'.

kdsub -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 11:32:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub The world has tried to help them over and over again ...they are not poor helpless victims...they are a band of thieves high on drugs and greed. The pirates are no more providing for the people then the mafia is for Queens. By your rationale, the world should cut economic ties with the US, since the mafia still operate in Queens and you have not stopped them. I don't hear your sympathy for the mafia..why do you have sympathy for the Somalian pirates? I would love it if the rest of the world cut ties with the US...what a Christmas present!!!. Butch

RealityLicks -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 11:38:33 AM)
You don't hear my sympathy for the mafia or the pirates. I just wondered why you tolerate the one but want a whole continent to suffer for the acts of the other. Leaving aside the moral relativism, how can you justify collective punishment? I'm not saying that the stolen fish stocks (which are valued at much more than the pocket change made by pirates) alone are justification for piracy - just a factor.

kdsub -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 11:44:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks You don't hear my sympathy for the mafia or the pirates. I just wondered why you tolerate the one but want a whole continent to suffer for the acts of the other. Leaving aside the moral relativism, how can you justify collective punishment? I'm not saying that the stolen fish stocks (which are valued at much more than the pocket change made by pirates) alone are justification for piracy - just a factor. I’m not tolerant of the mafia…we have prosecuted and controlled the mafia in America…the same thing that the Somalia’s should have done with the pirates. If the American mafia were to be raiding international shipping…I would be all for an international response if we refused to take care of it ourselves. And economic pressure would be a good first response. Butch

popeye1250 -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 1:31:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks You don't hear my sympathy for the mafia or the pirates. I just wondered why you tolerate the one but want a whole continent to suffer for the acts of the other. Leaving aside the moral relativism, how can you justify collective punishment? I'm not saying that the stolen fish stocks (which are valued at much more than the pocket change made by pirates) alone are justification for piracy - just a factor. "Moral relativism?" Gee, why doesn't someone just send in a bunch of Social Workers to "sort it out." They're fuckin' Pirates, you kill them and keep killing them until it stops. What do you people think, that they're going to take them prisoner? That they'll be sent to some school to be "rehabilitated" or something? Of course they don't want to be "poor" but nobody else does either. Whether they're "poor" or not is not germaine to the conversation or the solution. They're committing piracy and mayhem in international waters and interupting international commerce.

cjan -> RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? (12/2/2008 2:07:23 PM)
I think the pirates are getting a bad rap. It's not easy being a pirate , and, celticlaird, it is work. Damn hard work. Btw, since when is it the U.S. Navy's responsibility to police the high seas ? As far as I know, no U.S. flagged vessels have been pirated off the Somali coast or anywhere else. The oil tanker that was seized is Saudi owned. One cruise ship, one oil tanker and arms shippers have mostly been the targets. Let them deal with it. Go pirates !

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