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RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/2/2008 2:09:16 PM

RealityLicks

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They are merely "taxing" wealthy businesses for using their waters. They haven't killed anyone and the businesses - including, ironically enough, arms dealers - seem content to throw them a few mil now and again. How, after the last eight years, you can advocate upholding international law by breaking it is incredible, even by your own standards.

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RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/2/2008 2:09:22 PM

LaTigresse

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I just had a lightbulb moment.

All this time I've been wondering where Loki aka FukinTroll, went. Now I know! It wasn't just a costume, he really IS a pirate!

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RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/2/2008 2:24:42 PM

tweedydaddy

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How much taxpayers money is wasted on naval exercises and gunnery range practice when our sailors could be sending these scum to the bottom?
We have more than enough ships, more than enough shells and more than enough gunners to do it, what we lack are leaders. Would it be so bad if a few of our sailors got sunburn in those warm waters?

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Post #: 43

RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/2/2008 3:59:05 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

They are merely "taxing" wealthy businesses for using their waters. They haven't killed anyone and the businesses - including, ironically enough, arms dealers - seem content to throw them a few mil now and again. How, after the last eight years, you can advocate upholding international law by breaking it is incredible, even by your own standards.

And what does "the last eight years" have to do with piracy off Somalia's coast?

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RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/2/2008 4:58:40 PM

RealityLicks

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I don't know. I just said it because eight is my favourite number.

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RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/2/2008 5:02:03 PM

OrionTheWolf

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You are right, just because it was broken in the past does not mean we should follow it in the future. We should say to hell with international law, since by your statement we should not advocate it. That really makes a lot of sense if you really think about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

They are merely "taxing" wealthy businesses for using their waters. They haven't killed anyone and the businesses - including, ironically enough, arms dealers - seem content to throw them a few mil now and again. How, after the last eight years, you can advocate upholding international law by breaking it is incredible, even by your own standards.

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Post #: 46

RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/2/2008 7:59:52 PM

Nosathro

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As I understand it the Pirates work for one of the War Lords of Somalia and bring in about 150 Million a year. The US did send in the Marines about 10 years ago and got caught up in the mess. The African Congress did send Troopsin about 4 years and pulled them out last year, UN PeaceKeepers are pulling out now. One problems is that no nation not even the US want to be the Police in that area.

Historically speaking the conditions in Somalia, proverty, weapons, lack of government, etc are the same that helped set up what is known as the "Golden Age of Piracy". It ended when merchant ships were give weapons and England sent it Navy in with orders, that the Pirates sign a pledge to King George or hang them....most were hanged or killed in fighting.

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RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/2/2008 8:29:24 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

As I understand it the Pirates work for one of the War Lords of Somalia and bring in about 150 Million a year. The US did send in the Marines about 10 years ago and got caught up in the mess. The African Congress did send Troopsin about 4 years and pulled them out last year, UN PeaceKeepers are pulling out now. One problems is that no nation not even the US want to be the Police in that area.

Historically speaking the conditions in Somalia, proverty, weapons, lack of government, etc are the same that helped set up what is known as the "Golden Age of Piracy". It ended when merchant ships were give weapons and England sent it Navy in with orders, that the Pirates sign a pledge to King George or hang them....most were hanged or killed in fighting.

The US went in to protect the food charities...not to fight...if we did there would not be a problem there now...but as usual the politicians tied the hands of the professionals...If we wanted to clean them out it would be an easy operation...All we need is the political will...It's not there however because we once cared for the starving children of Somalia...and they bit our hands. Most I believe in America could care less about them now. What a waste of humanity.

If we go back it should be only to clean out the pirates and their ability to continue piracy.

Butch

(in reply to Nosathro)

Post #: 48

RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/2/2008 9:25:21 PM

OrionTheWolf

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~FR~

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how ending fish poaching will reduce the piracy.

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Post #: 49

RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/3/2008 12:35:47 AM

corysub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Somali pirates tell their side.

When there's lawlessness, desperation and hunger, you could argue that men have to do what they have to do... and that they'd be spineless sheep for letting others dictate that they should starve and stay humble.

Exactly the same mentality that gave creditability to the mafia. Seemed like a good idea in the beginning.
I seem to recall an institution called the "United Nations"....are they still around or just a makework organization for unemployed politicians from around the globe. Seems to me some sort of global reponse to this violence from an organization like the failed UN might be a consideration.

(in reply to kittinSol)

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RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/3/2008 1:22:36 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

All we need is the political will.

We need considerably more than that.

When President George H. W. Bush sent Marines into Somalia, their mission was strictly aiding famine relief efforts--with the collapse of the Soviet Union it was an historic opportunity to use the logistics capacities of the military for something other than warfare.

When President Clinton took office, he morphed the mission into a generalized peacekeeping one, with no clear military objectives beyond keeping the warlords at bay. The great flaw in this was (and remains) that Somalia basically has no functioning government--the warlords are the only government that country has.

Sending troops in to clean out the pirates is, of itself, a fool's errand because there is nothing and nobody to prevent another warlord from putting more pirates to sea as soon as the troops leave. Unlike Iraq, where the functioning apparatus of a state was present after toppling Saddam Hussein, there literally is no foundation to even begin an effort at nation-building.

The piracy exists because there are no countervailing forces to raise the overall cost (i.e., risk of capture and/or death) of piracy to the point where the endeavor becomes an unattractive means of making money. The activity itself must be made permanently less attractive or it will continue.

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RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/3/2008 5:55:15 AM

cjan

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Again, I am puzzled by some peoples apparent need to stick their noses into affairs that don't concern them. I suppose, to a large extent, when it's a virtual nose, they have nothing to lose.

Whose bull is being gored here ? No U.S. vessels have been attacked. ( Yes, I do realize this is a global forum, I'm just speaking from my point of view ) There are countries in the region with naval capability to protect the shipping lanes. Let them handle it, if they wish.Why do so many Americans feel the need to police the world ? I think we have plenty of our own, more pressing , problems to solve before we go policing the high seas half way around the world.

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Post #: 52

RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/3/2008 6:08:07 AM

blacksword404

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Two things..first tell the African Union that unless they act to stabilize Somalia we..meaning the US and our allies...will withhold all aid to every union country.

If this does not work send in a Marine division...destroy all the small boats kill as many as possible then set off the coast for a few years in case we need to do it again. DON"T occupy and try to change their way of thinking..just kill them...After awhile they will find other professions.

Butch

Butch, I'm curious. Why do you think that the US should be taking any action at all to protect private companies' property?

As to the suggestion that the whole African Union should be penalised, even those countries thousands of miles away, isn't that a collective punishment on innocent people and extremely morally dubious?

Andd why aren't US Marines to be used against the foreign trawlers which illegally fish Somali waters?

I wonder if you realize the cost we would all pay if we failed to protect the free passage of people and goods in that area? Yes… protecting this free passage is the business of all maritime nations.

Either we have to police Africa or they do…not one is innocent if they allow piracy off their coasts. So yes they are responsible even if thousands of miles away…they are a lot closer then we are.

Foreign trawlers which illegally fish Somali waters is not the reason for this piracy…it is plain and simple greed on the part of the warlords. I blame no one but the people of Somalia themselves for allowing these petty thieves to rule them. They either agree with them or they’re too fearful to confront them…either way it is their fault.

Butch

So who is responsible for the thieves that rule us? Should the same not apply to us in this kind of thinking?

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RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/3/2008 8:56:46 AM

kdsub

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Hi blacksword...I'm not sure what you mean. If you are referring to the actions of the US then yes I agree we the people are responsible for the actions of our government. But unlike the Somalians we at least try to change our government if we believe they are wrong. Many of us have died in horrific conflicts to do this in the past...and of late we have voted our majority views for change.

Butch

(in reply to blacksword404)

Post #: 54

RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/3/2008 9:57:44 AM

popeye1250

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When President Clinton took office, he morphed the mission into a generalized peacekeeping one, with no clear military objectives beyond keeping the warlords at bay. The great flaw in this was (and remains) that Somalia basically has no functioning government--the warlords are the only government that country has.

Hmm CL, if you substitute "druglords" for "warlords" you could be talking about Mexico.
And there's that word again, "peacekeepers."
We all know how well that stuff works! lol
The military are not "peacekeepers."
If Clinton had any military experience he'd have known that from the gitmo,...er, I mean gitgo.

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Post #: 55

RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/3/2008 10:31:06 AM

MrQwerty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
What do we do with the drunken pirates, What do we do with the drunken pirates, earlyy in the morning.

Well in answer to this problem I suggest we stick an anti piracy hologram on the side of our boats. It be the obvious solution.

These people should have asked for more money for that oil tanker a couple of weeks back considering its cargo. They could have even blackmailed us by threatening to scupper it and cause untold pollution, these people are clearly not evil geniuses like me and clearly then need to research Die hard 1 through 4 to improve their approach next time.

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Post #: 56

RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/3/2008 10:36:46 AM

cjan

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Joined: 2/21/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

When President Clinton took office, he morphed the mission into a generalized peacekeeping one, with no clear military objectives beyond keeping the warlords at bay. The great flaw in this was (and remains) that Somalia basically has no functioning government--the warlords are the only government that country has.

Hmm CL, if you substitute "druglords" for "warlords" you could be talking about Mexico.
And there's that word again, "peacekeepers."
We all know how well that stuff works! lol
The military are not "peacekeepers."
If Clinton had any military experience he'd have known that from the gitmo,...er, I mean gitgo.

Clinton ? Sheesh

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 57

RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/3/2008 10:39:01 AM

jlf1961

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From: Somewhere Texas
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Okay, what part of ransoming ships for cash is wrong. The pirates do not kill anyone, just demand money.

at least they dont have the money to pick up a used Tango or Yankee class diesel electric sub from the russians....

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RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/3/2008 10:45:59 AM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Okay, what part of ransoming ships for cash is wrong. The pirates do not kill anyone, just demand money.

at least they dont have the money to pick up a used Tango or Yankee class diesel electric sub from the russians....

These guys are excellent shots... they filled a US passenger liner with AK47 rounds and didn't kill anyone. Hey is your kid thinking of a cruise through the Gulf of Aden soon? Damn I’ll bet she or he will have fun dodging bullets…but don’t worry they never kill anyone they're great shots.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/3/2008 10:54:05 AM >

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Post #: 59

RE: What to do about piracy and Somalia? - 12/3/2008 11:17:35 AM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Okay, what part of ransoming ships for cash is wrong. The pirates do not kill anyone, just demand money.

at least they dont have the money to pick up a used Tango or Yankee class diesel electric sub from the russians....

These guys are excellent shots... they filled a US passenger liner with AK47 rounds and didn't kill anyone. Hey is your kid thinking of a cruise through the Gulf of Aden soon? Damn I’ll bet she or he will have fun dodging bullets…but don’t worry they never kill anyone they're great shots.

Butch

Butch, ever heard of SARCASM......

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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Post #: 60

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