RE: Set of rules... (Full Version)

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LaTigresse -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 7:34:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88


Me too mc1234. I do the whole routine, including shaving, every single day. Full make-up, hair, dressed for the office, jewelry, the works. Start to finish under an hour.  I have to wonder what takes these women ( or men ) the he references two hours. [8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: mc1234

quote:

ORIGINAL: atypicalsub
Yea, I have a pretty good idea of how long it takes a woman to shower, completely shave, put on make up, put together an outfit and get dressed.  None of the women I've known  did all that every single day just because it took too much time.  Hell I've known men that take two hours every morning just getting ready to go to work.  The point stands that giving the sub a long list of daily requirements means you have to give the sub time to perform those tasks.  If the tasks require supplies such as make up and clothing money has to be budgeted for those costs.


45 minutes, start-to-finish.  :)  Sometimes 60 minutes if the hair is being difficult (I have long hair).  It's really not that hard... lol.  Do I do it every day?  Not if I'm not leaving the house, but usually 6 days/week easily.  If a guy took 2 hours to get ready for the day, I'd be wondering what in god's name he was doing! 




Exactly! If it took me two hours I would be doing alot of other stuff at the same time. I get up around 4:30 or 5am. But I don't start getting ready until 6 or after. I am usually ready to head out the door by 6:30 or 6:45 (depending on whether or not I am being lazy and moving slow, second cuppa joe and so forth). If it took me 2 hours to do my foofoo stuff every day, I would just give up and never leave!

The guy that lives at the farm. He likes to sleep as late as possible. At 6 I open the bedroom door to send the dogs in to raise the dead. He staggers into the bathroom around 6:20 and is showered, shaved, dressed for the office, and coffee in hand by 6:45. Not exactly coherent, but still upright and mobile.




MadRabbit -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 8:22:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael
I got the impression that you found the list, or something like it, somewhere and filled in your own fantasy version of things. 


...which is the basic starting point for 90% of the people who get involved in D/S dynamics. Whether it's the books of Gor, the story of O, the Anna Rice books, the movie the Pet, the movie the Secretary, or Price Lela being chained to Jabba the Hut, fantasy serves as the foundation for quite a lot of rules or protocol.

Unless your going to claim that wearing a collar and calling your partner Master are purely original thoughts, I don't think you have much ground for your "I'm Better Than You" tone your taking in your post.

It's quite a normal phenomena for someone who has no experience and solely trying to conceptualize his own relationship in the theoretical to come up with such a list. I had my own in the beginning and experience has greatly changed it.

quote:


I am wondering how you would propose to enforce the thought-police attitude that appears to underly the submissive may think what she wants; something about that very assertion makes me think you don't actually buy that a sub ought to think for herself.  If that's the case, I hear companies in, I think Japan, have robots available; perhaps a good investment foronewho wishes an automaton.


That's pretty negative. One of the common misunderstanding among new people is that a submissive women lacks any form of independence, free thought, or automation of her own own. I saw someone just making a point to state otherwise.

quote:


I didn't read the whole thing as it just became boring. 


I feel the same way about the rest of your post.

.
quote:

ORIGINAL: E2Sweet

I'm curious how many human beings it would actually require to enforce all that at all times. Even on my domliest days, I wouldn't have the energy to enforce all of the enforcable points...

 
You don't enforce them all at once. You start with a few and focus on them until they become habits, then you move on to others. You start with a small base and constantly build on it.

The number of protocol and rules we live by on a daily basis far exceeds the list provided by the OP. Brush your teeth twice a day. Floss. Comb your hair. Make your bed. Stop at a stop sign. Slow down in a school zone. Don't call your boss an asshole. Change your oil every 3 months. Call your father on his birthday.

The difference is these are all internalized and not something we give much conscious thought to. It's not the sum total of protocol one has, but rather how many you try and internalize at one time.

As I mentioned, I have four basic one's that universally apply to anyone I am with. I focus on these four and those four alone until they become like breathing. At that point, then if the particulars of the relationship require it, I add more in small sets.

Somethings are easier for people to adapt. Somethings are harder. One girl took on to calling me "sir" in less than a week. Another person it took me two months of focusing solely on that and that alone to get it consistent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

This makes me wonder why more men do not just fork out 3 grand and buy themselves a REALDOLL.
If you had one of those you can pretty much toss out the submissives may think what they want, part.
Seriously guy.. do you at any point consider that the submissive may actually be a human female?
Kyst


Why would I do that when I can have a submissive women who enjoys being controlled and being pleasing to me?

Whats the correlation between high expectations of a women's dress, hair, and behavior and being a female?

Is this one of those ignorant opinions about how being submissive and being molded by a dominant is an insult to one's femininity and sense of self?

I get it Missokyst. Your Kink Isn't My Kink, but Your Kink SUCKS!




DesFIP -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 8:42:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Me too mc1234. I do the whole routine, including shaving, every single day. Full make-up, hair, dressed for the office, jewelry, the works. Start to finish under an hour.  I have to wonder what takes these women ( or men ) the he references two hours. [8|]



Yeah but atypical said he had five sisters. I bet a lot of the time was them fighting for the mirror, being thrown out of the bathroom and having to wait to go back and finish.

The more teen girls there are, the longer the primping takes.




persephonee -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 8:47:14 AM)

i like the font.




Violation -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 9:00:58 AM)

Perhaps this forum should be called Teapot because of all the little tempests we see here.  How dare someone new and inexperienced be well, inexperienced?  The sheer unmitigated gall of it all.  I haven't yet heard anyone say "true" but it certainly is implied.  The only measure of something is how well it works for those involved.  I agree, much of what he wrote shows an innocent niavete about how all this works but it certainly isn't extreme.  Much of it comes about because female submissives are pampered more often than not.  Look at the things that are often done to male submissives, long term orgasm denial and chastity, the cleaning of a Mistress's lover's cum out of her cunt, the suturing shut of his cock, and god knows what other things that if done to a woman would have this little pecking circle explode in chastisement.

Thank god for sane voices like our little rabbit who seems to be running circles around the hens.  What people forget is that there are two parties involved in a contract (or more) and what they bring to the table can allow for great things to be done.  Certainly the young man in question needs to learn the difference between punishment for erotic reasons and how one actually shapes, and dare I say it, mold another person into his ideal.  But mold away young man, make mistakes, learn and grow and ignore the chatter of the hens who know nothing but scolding. 

You are too young to see the nuance in my own contract, the places where it seems firm and exacting but isn't and where is seems soft and easy but is in fact hard and difficult.  Note how erotic fantasy is woven together with bitter reality to form an erotic reality.  I wish you well on your journey and you would be wise to read our young rabbit, his wisdom surpasses many who believe themselves his better.

quote:

  
Contract
 
I, SlaveX, seek to explore my darkest and most degrading fantasies and I offer myself up to Master in the hopes that he can strip every bit of self respect and pride from me until I am nothing.  I accept that there are risks, both known and unknown in this.  I choose Master for this task because I have faith in his skills and abilities and because I trust that he has my best interests at heart.  At the end of this contract we will work together to process any remaining issues with the intent of becoming stronger through having taken this journey.
 
Toward that goal, I acknowledge the following:
 
I am not being offered a permanent relationship in any form with Master
 
In seeking to offer myself up for complete and utter debasement, I accept that there are risks that I am taking in so doing.
 
I am no longer in control of my sexuality.  I no longer control who or what uses my body or who or what I pleasure with it.
 
I am Master’s to use as he sees fit.  That includes the loaning, sharing, exposing, and selling of myself in whatever ways he feels appropriate.
 
If Master chooses to mark or pierce my body, it is his decision alone.
 
As part of my submission, I accept that what goes into my mouth is also not under my control.  Eating will be under his supervision and I will be seeking to loose whatever weight he deems appropriate.
 
My appearance, including clothing, hair, nails, and makeup are entirely under his control with the sole restriction being needing to maintain employment.
 
I expect to be forced, manipulated, blackmailed, and the subject of whatever form of pressure is needed to ensure compliance with this contract and to ensure that I am reduced to absolute nothingness.  I seek nothing more than to stand in the abyss alive.
 
Toward the goals desired by SlaveX, I, Master, acknowledge the following:
 
At all times I will have the ultimate mental and emotional health of SlaveX in mind.
 
I will strip all pride, all independence, all humanity, in short, everything from her.
 
In return, when she is finally standing in that dark abyss, I will allow her to see how rare a creature she is and reveal to her what a truly amazing and powerful woman she really is.





RainydayNE -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 10:34:46 AM)

i dont think EVERYONE is being mean =p there was a wave of meanness but most of the early replies aren't all that mean.
he posted it here for comments, and people gave their comments =p mad rabbit was very specific and helpful
alot of chicks reminded him that shaving every day is just not usually feasible. there's more good than bad i think. it's just easier to jump in and be a hero and say "oh look at all you meanies!" =p




RCdc -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 11:18:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

It shows you have much to learn and probably have very little RT experience. You should probably get some mentoring.

 
Lusyone - I just cannot agree with this at all.  But then I am not big on mentors and the whole caboodle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Rules are made to be broken--always. The more rules you have the less obedience you will get.


That is absolute BULLSHIT!


I don't know KoM, CL has a point that rules or made to be broken - or obeyed.  However agreements are just that - something two people decide upon.  WHilst it's great to have a set of rules, unless the s-type agrees to them, they are pointless.  Of course, that is all down to compatability and negociation in the first place - and whilst it might come across that people are pulling the OPs words to bits to some people, offering advice such as female shaving, will help him adjust his list.
 
 
On the overall thread - I don't think the list is a bad thing, but it isn't realistic from a 'searching' POV.  Personallly I would recommend finding someone compatable before going through the whole list negociation phase because otherwise it is highly likely there will be unrealistic expectations listed without knowing the person you are negociating with.   Having a set of hard and fast rules are great once you know a person and understand their mental capacities and their physical attributes - as well as their family life, work and background.  But to have a list like this before you have met anyone is self defeating.  It is much more advisable to have a rough draft of the kind of person you might like to spend you time with and go from there - but to have a list of expectations before you have someone runs the risk of missing out what you can have.
 
Which is why the list to me is not realistic and is fantasy.
 
the.dark.




MadRabbit -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 11:28:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE
it's just easier to jump in and be a hero and say "oh look at all you meanies!" =p


I think it's easier to do what's "cool" which is joining in on a feeding frenzy with the intention of ridicule and humiliation in order to stroke your own Ego. Not saying that I am somehow "better" then some of the other posters, because awhile ago I was just as bad at contributing to the pointless and destructive rhetoric.

But at the same time, I made a personal decree to contribute to these forums in solely a constructive and positive way rather than contribute in a destructive, sadistic and petty way. I would very much like to see these boards return to a place where constructive information can be found as opposed to solely gibberish being typed out by a bunch of adults acting on par to high school kids.

While some helpful information might be gathered among the ridicule, laughter, and "Your just stupid" type of enlightening comments, it still doesn't change the intentions and motivations present by the posters.

So while you might perceive this as "being an Internet hero", it's simply just me trying to hold myself to the new standard I have set for myself in hopes of making things a bit better around here.




RCdc -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 11:28:18 AM)

MR - I don't necessarily disagree with everything you said, but I would refer you back to a thread you began recently.  I mentioned on that about searching and looking but never seeing.  You can have a list as long as your arm but with it you run the risk of missing out on so much.  That doesn't ever mean settling, but being too rigged when you don't have someone in mind will make you miss any possibilities you have yet to consider.
 
the.dark.




MadRabbit -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 11:36:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

MR - I don't necessarily disagree with everything you said, but I would refer you back to a thread you began recently.  I mentioned on that about searching and looking but never seeing.  You can have a list as long as your arm but with it you run the risk of missing out on so much.  That doesn't ever mean settling, but being too rigged when you don't have someone in mind will make you miss any possibilities you have yet to consider.
 
the.dark.

 
I don't disagree with you at all, but I am talking mainly about protocols and rules in the context of a relationship as opposed to forming a solid list prior to having any knowledge of your partner.
 
Even my basic list of general things that are present in all my relationships changes a bit from person to person. I dated someone who had a core value against wearing leather once so I had to deal with that in regards to wearing a leather collar at night.
 
However, while being too rigid certainly has it's downfalls, not having any idea of what you expect to get out of your future submissive partner who theoretically is going to be submitting to you can be just as bad.
 
If one doesn't have some degree of goals and expectactions for their relationship, then how does one develop the relationship according to what they want?
 
I know what exactly what I want and what I intend to get out of a submissive partner, but the nuances of it might change from person to person. I fail to see how developing codes of behavior prior to a relationship is negated by compatibility, since the submissive in the act of "submitting" will be following those codes of behavior upon entering the relationship. If one's expectactions and codes of behavior change completely based on the submissive, then I wonder who exactly is the dominant.




RCdc -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 11:37:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I think dark was being really, really generous in saying she could pick apart only 80% of this. It's ridiculous. And this:


I don't know erin.  There are a couple of things there that I didn't see as having huge issues, like having protocols on names in certain situations.  That in itself is pretty clear and up front and takes all people into consideration.  I guess that is why I stated 80%.  If the rest of the list was as clear and full of forethought, it would help the OP.
 
the.dark.




RCdc -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 11:48:01 AM)

I think MR (and I am only guessing seeing as the majority of negative responses came from s-types) is that some people didn't like the fact that the 'rules' seem to be coming before the person (if that makes any sense).
The whole point of the OP asking is or constructive feedback.  My advice is to not finalise such a list before you meet someone but rather, have a rough goal of the type of person you want to be with.
 
the.dark.




MadRabbit -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 11:58:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I think MR (and I am only guessing seeing as the majority of negative responses came from s-types) is that some people didn't like the fact that the 'rules' seem to be coming before the person (if that makes any sense).
The whole point of the OP asking is or constructive feedback.  My advice is to not finalise such a list before you meet someone but rather, have a rough goal of the type of person you want to be with.
 
the.dark.

 
I think we are saying the same thing then in our posts.
 
My advice to those submissives would be to consider being a dominant if they want to be the designers of the relationship and it's structure.
 
I look at the issue from two different angles.
 
One is a laundry list of qualities I look for in a submissive. Having too rigid of a list can definitely hamper the search process.
 
Another is my own structure of the relationship and list of protocol. These have nothing to do with the search process. There are subject to change based on the particulars of an individual. Being pragmatic, I have to take into account someone having a moral code against wearing leather or having exceptionally dry skin that hinders shaving and therefore adjust the nuances of a protocol to deal with that. But wearing a collar of a different fabric is a far cry from not wearing a collar at all. I never compromise on the expectation itself. Only the details of it.
 
I mean, honestly, if you aren't willing to change your behavior to meet the demands of the dominant, then how can you honestly say you are submitting to someone?
 
If a potential submissive has an issue with me having predetermined codes of behavior that I expect her to change to upon submitting to me that I formed without her "approval", then my suggestion would be to pursue an egalitarian relationship or become a dominant themselves.
 




KnightofMists -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 12:03:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Rules are made to be broken--always. The more rules you have the less obedience you will get.


That is absolute BULLSHIT!


I don't know KoM, CL has a point that rules or made to be broken - or obeyed.  However agreements are just that - something two people decide upon.  WHilst it's great to have a set of rules, unless the s-type agrees to them, they are pointless.  Of course, that is all down to compatability and negociation in the first place - and whilst it might come across that people are pulling the OPs words to bits to some people, offering advice such as female shaving, will help him adjust his list.

 
Well if that was what the comment actually stated I would agree with you... however that is not what the comment stated or implied. 

Rules are NOT made to be broken.. The people that make them are expecting them to be obeyed.  It comes to a consideration on those who are going to Obey them.  The field is going to be rather wide open of those that will obey and those that will not.  It is highly probable that just and appropriate rules will tend to result in continued obedience by those that are to obey them.  It is absolutely ridiculus to consider that more just and appropriate rules will result in Less obedience as the comment states in such an absolute fashion.

The Quality of obedience is not going to be determined by the Quantity of the rules... but by the Quality of the Dominant and Submissive as well as the Quality of the rules created for them!   For example, the issue that the OP will have is that he has made a set of rules that appropriate to him... but he is missing the other half of the equation in the making of such rules.  Merc and I have both pointed out that this is an important factor in the making of his rules.  It just might be that he will find a girl that these rules are prefect for.  However, as so many individuals and some in a very consending manner showed that the rules are of not appropriate for them.  The end result would of been disobedience in alot of areas at best.. and no relationship at worse.  In a dysfunctional D/s relationship it is often very true that the rules are just somethig to be broken and that more rules for the relationship will result in just less obedience not more.  However, in a functional D/s relationship.. rules are followed and more appropriate rules will result in continued obedience not less.

This brings me to a final point in the application of rules within a relationship.  The key obedience of the rules is not the quality of the rules themselves thou it is important.  It is the quality of the relationship and individuals in the relationship that have a more significant impact on the results.




Rover -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 12:08:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Rules are made to be broken--always. The more rules you have the less obedience you will get.


That is absolute BULLSHIT!


KoM, in addition to the very relevant explanations given previously, consider the following....
 
The more rules you have, the greater the likelihood that a submissive/slave is going to run afoul of one of them; find one or more of them onerous and unacceptable; or find themselves simply unable to comply.  It's legislating what was previously acceptable into the unacceptable. 
 
In the extreme, there is nothing wrong with breathing.  Everyone does it.  Now if you were to legislate that into an offense, it's quite likely that someone is going to break that rule.
 
And it stands to reason that someone with 1,000 rules is less likely to achieve full compliance than someone with 10 rules.  It's simply a matter of probability.
 
John




KnightofMists -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 12:26:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
And it stands to reason that someone with 1,000 rules is less likely to achieve full compliance than someone with 10 rules.  It's simply a matter of probability.
 
John


But we are not dealing with throwing the dice... we are dealing with a process.

You walk down to the end of the block each day to store.  What is the probability that you walk down that block and end up in a different spot.  Not very likely I am thinking.  If a person follows a process that works in the formulation of the rules that provide quality obedience for the relationship.  I am thinking the probability of following a process that gives quality obedience will be rather rather like walking to the end of the block.  Of course, one of the aspects of that process is to evaluate rules that are in effect.  Because we shouldn't just make a rule and consider the job done.  As relationships grow and change so should rules.  The process and the results go hand in hand with each other.  I would also state that one should also keep an eye on the results as well or even effort to get the results.  It might mean that one needs to improve the process.  which again is just part of the process to review the efffectiveness of building appropriate rules for the relationship. 




Rover -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 12:32:08 PM)

I understand what you mean.  But as any manager will tell you, the more you complicate the process the more errors you'll get.
 
John




KnightofMists -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 12:42:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I understand what you mean.  But as any manager will tell you, the more you complicate the process the more errors you'll get.
 
John


I have been a Leader and Manager in the company I work for these last 15 plus years.  Execute and build processes.  A common phrase is Exception Management.  No process is prefect or fits every situations that might come along.  Therefore one needs a process to deal with those situations hence.. "Exception Management".  Not alot different in my relationship with my girls.  They will bring things to the table that don't fit the process.  There are two things that I do amoug many in my relationship.  One is the creation of rules that are to be followed... the second is give permissions.  Rules are more a Top down with the information flow while permission the information flow is bottom up.  The permission process is very much part of an exception process.  Often time my girls will seek permission on immediate relief on a given rule for whatever reason.  of course the Decision flow is always Top down.  As note... yes there are times that they might not beable to get ahold of me and seek permission.. and yes there is a exception process for that as well.

editted to add....

Part of the benefits exception management is that when it's called upon.. it's an opportunity to improve the base process.  In my career I have often improved my work processes because I receive 3 am call because someone had an exception.  In a relaitonship, if one doesn't address these exceptions it will in the end have negative impact upon the relationship.




Rover -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 12:48:18 PM)

All of which is well and good, but completely ignores the point that the more complicated any process becomes, the more errors will result (some even generated by the process itself).
 
John




KnightofMists -> RE: Set of rules... (12/4/2008 12:50:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

All of which is well and good, but completely ignores the point that the more complicated any process becomes, the more errors will result (some even generated by the process itself).
 
John


I made an edit.. that you might not of seen.  You deal with the exception and then you improve the process that generated the exceptioin in the first place.




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