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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 8:14:07 AM

masterBruce

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the bristish was doing that for about 200 yrs if history was right

< Message edited by masterBruce -- 12/4/2008 8:15:11 AM >

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 9:13:45 AM

OrionTheWolf

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What population? Does everyone want the Islamic law, or are many afraid to say anything because of fear? You state as a fact that they want Islamic law, but is that actually the case? Also, if the government they set up supports terrorist training camps (such as the Taliban in Afghanistan did) should it be allowed?

Basically it does come down to our idea of right and wrong, if their idea of right and wrong spills outside their borders into ours, or our citizens.

As an example, back when Iraq was trying to reform their government, I supported the idea that the populace could choose Islamic law, but if that led to that country setting up terrorist camps then they should also suffer the consequences of those actions.

I am in support of neither the US, or outside Islamic factions meddling in the affairs of Somalia. The exception being if the problems there spill into international areas or onto the soil of the US or those we have treaties with (basically honoring our word to the treaty we signed). Now if you want to start a new thread about having treaties, I will contribute quite a bit to that.

I noticed you did not answer any of the direct questions asked. If you notice I do not answer a direct question, just bring it to my attention.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Imposing our ideas of right and wrong then; bugger what the population think?

E

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 9:21:11 AM

LadyEllen

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I see no problem with imposing our will on others - I just wish we would be honest one way or the other.

Either fess up to being the biggest bastards on the planet and treating all ruthlessly - or behave ethically according to our stated high ideals in all this.

If the former we must ready ourselves for the extermination of the Palestinians, if the latter we must get ready to tell Israel to behave itself. If the former we should drop a neutron bomb on Somalia forthwith, if the latter we have no business meddling in their internal affairs.

We cant expect to behave like bastards when it suits and then when the consequences come back our way scream terrorism and look to the higher moral ground and portray ourselves as martyrs to the highest ethics wronged by evil.

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 9:34:29 AM

OrionTheWolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I see no problem with imposing our will on others - I just wish we would be honest one way or the other.

It would be one way or the other, depending upon the situation.

quote:

Either fess up to being the biggest bastards on the planet and treating all ruthlessly - or behave ethically according to our stated high ideals in all this.

First you would need to determine what the biggest bastard on the planet means, rather than just be vague. You would also need to determine what the high ideals are that you are speaking of.

quote:

If the former we must ready ourselves for the extermination of the Palestinians, if the latter we must get ready to tell Israel to behave itself. If the former we should drop a neutron bomb on Somalia forthwith, if the latter we have no business meddling in their internal affairs.

Why would we have to do that? There is nothing wrong with double standards, in my opinion. I do agree that more pressure needs to be placed on Israel for some of the things it is doing, but they are doing it in response to an action, just like the Palestinians are doing it in response to an action. That situation is a cycle that has been going on for many decades, and involves more than just the Palestinians and Israel.

quote:

We cant expect to behave like bastards when it suits and then when the consequences come back our way scream terrorism and look to the higher moral ground and portray ourselves as martyrs to the highest ethics wronged by evil.

E

Sure we can, just not in the way we have been doing it. I believe in first diplomacy, and when it breaks down an assessment made as to whether military force is needed. Once it is determined that it is needed, then the last ditch diplomacy of" stop your shit or we attack" should be offered.

If you really want to do something about Somalia, then the International community needs to either be involved collectively, or stay the fuck out collectively. Threat of economic and military action against countries that go against this, and the resolve to use it would be neccesary.

Personally I would like to see the US pull out of all military and economic engagements around the globe. This includes relief efforts as well as military bases. If the world truely starts going to shit, then let it. Warn everyone ahead of time that if they involve or attack us, that we will retaliate with complete and utter ruthlessness.

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 9:53:09 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

? My OP says that all was chaos until the Islamics rolled into town and brought order under Islamic law.

The people welcomed this restoration of order. The west didnt. The west interfered through its proxy Ethiopia and chaos was restored.

The principle here is self determination - if the people of Somalia preferred living in order under Islamic law, we have no business in interfering, whether directly or as here by proxy.

The debate is whether we truly fight for the freedom of peoples to have self determination, or whether we fight to impose our will.

Too often it is the latter

E

You still have your facts wrong. Firstly the warlords didnt have control of Somalia, just part of it. Secondly your view supposes Ethopia acted for the west, airbrushing out the history of warfare between the two countries. Do you not think Ethiopia might have been a tiny bit worried about a possible invasion, like the one in the 70s ?

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 1:32:27 PM

LadyEllen

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It has been and is being widely reported that Ethiopia invaded at the urging of the Bush administration, when the Islamics took power.

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 1:43:43 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

It has been and is being widely reported that Ethiopia invaded at the urging of the Bush administration, when the Islamics took power.

E

So the Ethiopians, like Democrats in Congress, can't say "no" to GWB?

I have GOT to find out what brand of after shave he uses.......

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 1:44:40 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

It has been and is being widely reported that Ethiopia invaded at the urging of the Bush administration, when the Islamics took power.

E

I'm not saying it's not true...but who did the reporting...I've not heard that here...do you have some links... reputable ones?

Butch

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 1:51:34 PM

LadyEllen

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It was on BBC, Channel 4 and others Butch; I'm not going to go looking for links but you can find it if you want it

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 2:02:56 PM

Joenextdoor

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BBC???...say no more. This whole line of thinking is the same mentality that says Bush caused 9-11, or that The US brought it on itself. Ridiculous.

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 2:03:31 PM

celticlord2112

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Well, at least the source wasn't the NY TImes.....

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 2:04:39 PM

LadyEllen

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5175525.ece

How about The Times? One of Murdoch's mouthpieces (the same guy that owns Fox, aka the Republican Broadcasting Corporation)

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 2:06:23 PM

LadyEllen

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http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-01-07-ethiopia_x.htm

any better?

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 2:08:06 PM

LadyEllen

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http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070226/wachter

believe it yet?

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 2:08:37 PM

Joenextdoor

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Here we go....Fox is GOP tv....well, Fox only looks right leaning because all the others lean so far left. The truth is, Fox offers both sides a voice, and if you look at any program over a week's time, they will have equal numbers of left and right leaners. You just won't do that with MSNBC, CNN, or any of the networks. You are welcome to spew the "right wing tv" montra all you want, but you are just kidding yourself.

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 2:13:41 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

It was on BBC, Channel 4 and others Butch; I'm not going to go looking for links but you can find it if you want it

E

Surely if you made the claim, then the onus is on you to support it. As it goes I have searched the BBC archive and cant find any report such as the one you mention.

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 2:16:43 PM

LadyEllen

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How about this from Newsweek?

Ethiopian Prime Minister Meles Zenawi is easily Washington's most important African ally in its war on terrorism. In 2006, the United States quietly helped Zenawi's forces invade neighboring Somalia after a U.S.-financed coalition of warlords lost the capital of Mogadishu to an Islamist alliance known as the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC). The Ethiopian forces ousted the UIC but have been bogged down since then fighting an Iraq-style insurgency by Somali Islamist and clan militias

A US financed coalition of warlords, defeated by the Islamics - then a US abetted invasion to remove the Islamics....

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 2:19:53 PM

LadyEllen

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fxxx me PS53; I've provided links from timesonline, usatoday and thenation websites, plus an excerpt from newsweek.

and because I cant be arsed to trawl back 20 pages of Google to find a BBC one, its all rubbish!?

here's the search terms I used "ethiopia somalia bush" - let me know if you have time to trawl back through and dont find something OK?

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 2:22:02 PM

Politesub53

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Thank you for the newsweek link. I will go and have a read.

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 2:25:13 PM

LadyEllen

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http://www.newsweek.com/id/131432

the newsweek link

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