Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/26/2005 12:32:04 PM)

Today, we've been catching up with the holiday correspondence and responding to a number of nice notes. Many have asked, who we are, how we got here, how do we make it "work". And it got me thinking about the "how we got here".

A long time ago in a land know as NYC, I discovered BDSM. Back in that era my reference points for education were the Penthouse "Forums" or "Variations Magazines"; and the quarter booths on 42nd street, now showing "Lion King". Once I developed the courage I wandered into a few clubs and was lucky enough to make friends with people who were open about who/what they were who invited me to share in their experiences. It was wonderful! The most important realization was that the sexual thoughts I'd had weren't "perverted"; and the scenarios of dominance, submission, bondage, and humiliation were not unique.

Like a kid in a candy shop with unlimited energy I wanted to experience EVERYTHING! The fun part was - I did! I did the tying and was tied. I paddled butts and had mine paddled. I crawled and also held tight on the leather side of the leach. It didn't matter. Often half the fun was flipping a coin to see which "role" to play. Now that would be considered "switch", but back then the only words for it was "sensation slut". Ahhhhh youth!

Anyway, there came a time when the sessions started to become mundane. When the mind wanders, sensations have a hard time getting through. Again fortunate for access to living breathing references with experience I was told I was at a crossroad. No harm in continuing with the sensations but deeper fulfillment was possible with commitment. To accept the responsibility to be fully in charge, or to surrender all responsibility and give total commitment to another. I guess there was another choice, to be vanilla, but that thought never occurred to me at the time.

A period of self assessment followed and I came out of the exercise as a self-identified Dominant. It began my 20+ year search to find a counterpart. With the ignorance of youth, I believed lies and let emotions get in the way of pragmatic analysis. I married wrong to a person I met at a lifestyle club, who announced on the honeymoon jet flying to SF that she hoped my days of playing BDSM "games" would wane now that we were married. Events and tragedy intervened or I'd still be in NYC and living a life of lies, unfilled desires, and wallowing in self loathing.

Now for the past four years - I have contentment in all aspects of my life. Most important, I have found my counterpart - beth.

I don't think my path is unique. I see it occurring commonly. I think it natural to want to experience it all. Yet, beth had/has no such desire. she was a submissive personality when we met. she is a natural service oriented individual. she has zero desire to dominate anything more sentient than a puppy dog. Interesting is that fact that beth went through the same self analysis process before seeking another. Fortunately for her, her search lasted about 20 days instead of 20 years. Did she skip a step?

Was it my lack of maturity that required that I experienced before determining goal? Was beth's self analysis without the experience qualified? she has a wonderful argument when it comes to bi-sexuality on that point. she has had two experiences and they were not something she'd seek to do again. I on the other hand have had zero direct sexual contact with a man. So her comment is, I really don't know if I'm gay or bi-sexual or not because I have no reference. I hate it when I have to agree with a logical position contrary to what I KNOW for fact!

But here we are - either as the result of maturity, or personal evolution, to be where we are now - Master/slave. Accepting and enjoying the experiences though our chosen roles. Secure, and yet...

Is there another deeper mental, emotional, spiritual (beth added the spiritual) condition to seek? A person I consider a "mentor by proxy", proxy because he mentors by example not correspondence or daily contact, seems to be an example of something we are not. His sexuality is not limited by the sex of his partner. His dominance is not illustrated by confined to being on the handle side of the whip. His sessions are cathartic, erotic, and deeply moving to participate and witness. He has a peace about him.

Accepting evolution as a theory, because we see in modern society living examples of both ape and human, at some point the ape must have decided that he had evolved enough. He had no need for the complete thought process that resulted in the need for clothes. The human branch decided it did. Is either branch less fulfilled? No work, swinging in trees, and avoiding lions doesn't seem so bad compared to trying to make a living as a modern human. And think that all before the ape level decided that being a fish was good enough, or a lizard, or any of the other stages evolution took. Is life within the world of BDSM a process of evolution until achieving self acceptance and ultimately self peace?

Is obtaining this self "peace" a realistic goal for everyone? I've always said that 24/7 M/s is not a realistic goal for everyone. Being a slave or Master is not a requirement to enjoy the many aspects of this lifestyle. Although we are committed to still learn, we don't except much additional evolution. We believe we are at peace.

How many of you are at peace?




fyreredsub -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/26/2005 12:49:27 PM)

what a fantastic topic,thank you.
i am discovering peace as i go about my journey.
i started on the Top end of things and found i wasn't happy in that role. so i am learning to be true to myself,for me that means being a slave.
However, it has not been a peaceful journey,by any means, i fought my belly,sometimes i still do but not anywhere near the degree i used to.
i know i have much to learn about M/s but i am blessed w/ a peaceful Master that pushes gently w/ no demands other than just be you....that is something i am most grateful for. i'm not able to gracefully leap from one role to fulfilling my belly,lol,so i stumble and fall,but i am blessed w/ good friends to mentor me and they put bandaids on my knees and explain , i'll learn.one Master i know tells me, patience. so i guess in time it will all fall into place for me but peaceful and accepting i am now.hoping always to grow and learn trhough the laughter and tears.[:)]




LadyJulieAnn -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/26/2005 1:33:00 PM)

I'm striving for peace in all aspects of my life. I'm not quite "there" yet, but I'm closer than I've ever been before, and it's a good feeling. Interestingly enough, I think that some of my peace comes from taking a look at my life in the present and enjoying it for what it is, rather than always looking forward for changes to bring me happiness. So, while evolution is one way to find peace, I think it's important to not lose sight of the goodness you are experiencing in the present moment. Enjoy it.

Be well,
Julie




IrishMist -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/26/2005 1:47:05 PM)

Peace comes in many different forms :) I have had my 'peace' stripped away in the past, but have learned that it is only what we make of it. Now, I strive to keep a daily balance in my life, and have found that while I am 'at peace' with myself, I know that I still have along way to go before I reach that stage of being peaceful.




MTslave -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/26/2005 2:30:41 PM)

Hello Merc and beth [:)]
What a wonderful topic... that of peace.
I have found my own peace and it's been the most wonderful thing. Of course it completely blindsided me and I never saw it comming from the angle it did... but praise all that it came indeed.

I am married and not to my Master. The man I am married to and I were having MAJOR issues in our relationship. It seemed we were set on two very very different paths in our lives (and a heck of a lot of outstanding circumstances). It seemed I was fighting myself nearly as much as I was fighting him. The answer to 'why' finally presnted itself when I met the man who would be my Master.

Up until this point I never thought I'd take any part of this lifestyle past what I read online etc. However that all changed when my 'friend and confidante' said to me one night.... "hey I'll be in town wanna meet for coffee?" and I said.... "yes".

I could sum it up right there and say the rest was history but that leaves out how I figured out why I got my peace. Yes one thing led to another.. more time spent together... more talking... etc etc and then I was finally collared to him.

However

I am still married to the man I was before.... Master is still married to his wife (another situation not the greatest). BUT.... Master is in a much more peaceful state.... I am in a much more peaceful state within our OWNselves and with each other so that that peace just overflows into our home lives and marriages. So now BOTH sets of marriages/families are back to being at least more peaceful if not at peace.

I realize that my situation is not like many. Because all parties involved know whats going on and accept it and the peace it's brought. I've been often told I've got to have my cake and eat it to.... (I never understood this phrase)... and maybe I do... but it's given me a peace unlike any other and I am grateful every day for it.

Humbly submitted
Master T's slave




FLButtSlut -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/26/2005 8:10:56 PM)

Our experiences make us who we are. Some of us actively seek certain experiences, others just experience things that come their way. Both are equal when each individual sets down to self analysis, the seeker having sought out things to find what made them happy or miserable, the "along the way" knowing from what they experienced the same thing.

Some people never examine their life to see what direction they want next, others spend so much time examining their life, they fail to experience it.

Personally, I try to never have regrets. I don't even regret my ex husband (much), because the horrible experience with him helped me to be who I am now (as well as providing me my son). I like who I eventually became after my ex husband, which wouldn't have happened without his having been a part of my life. Of course, it would have been nice if he could have been a much shorter part!

I don't know if I can ever be totally "at peace". I am at peace with the direction my life is going, but not totally at peace with every aspect of my life. This, of course, is partially because while I am happy with the direction I am going, I haven't gotten to where I want to be just yet. Once I get "there", I will find "new" directions to go, and so my peace will be ever evolvinig and changing in some ways, but there will be peace with the goals, places and things I have already achieved.

Perhaps, some day I will be lucky enough to look around and find that I have done all I wanted to and can just peacefully sit back, but I doubt it, because when I sit, I think, and then I will think about seeking new things. So I guess while I am happy, "peace" to me is something that is momentary until the next thing I want to achieve comes up.




veronicaofML -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/26/2005 9:53:55 PM)

How many of you are at peace?
==========================

with MY anger issues???????

uh..no.
and i doubt i ever WILL be.

take care




foxglove716 -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/26/2005 10:22:04 PM)



quote:

Accepting evolution as a theory, because we see in modern society living examples of both ape and human, at some point the ape must have decided that he had evolved enough. He had no need for the complete thought process that resulted in the need for clothes. The human branch decided it did. Is either branch less fulfilled? No work, swinging in trees, and avoiding lions doesn't seem so bad compared to trying to make a living as a modern human. And think that all before the ape level decided that being a fish was good enough, or a lizard, or any of the other stages evolution took. Is life within the world of BDSM a process of evolution until achieving self acceptance and ultimately self peace?


This is true, I think, and it is an optimistic view, it implies that peace can really be acchieved by anyone, no matter their state. My only problem with evolution, or at least the way it seems sometimes, is that it is confining... it makes me think we are supposed to evolve into some ideal superhuman. We will never acheive this (certainly not in our lifetimes anyway!) and striving to reach an unattainable goal not only downgrades the quality of your own life, it is the biggest waste of time ever. So I try not to view peace as any sort of ideal, live life and love yourself. That is peace.





Morgaine289 -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/26/2005 11:04:04 PM)

This Merc, is a very good topic.


quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Peace comes in many different forms :) I have had my 'peace' stripped away in the past, but have learned that it is only what we make of it. Now, I strive to keep a daily balance in my life, and have found that while I am 'at peace' with myself, I know that I still have along way to go before I reach that stage of being peaceful.


IrishMist, due to some tragedys i had in my life, starting as a child is my position very near to your postion. I will add a sentence given to me many years ago. Travelling more than 20 years back i renember the following conversation. I asked a friend who was aroung 10 years older than me, if he is able to give me a short explanation about what buddism is. And he thought some time about it and answered: Without fears from the past and without hopes into the future, if you strive to reach this, being not bound by what happened in the past and do not ironize the future by determing what has to happen, you can reach being in the moment.

I understood on a deeper level instantly what he meant. This sentence and this attitude is with me - always.

Postskriptum My other nick on the net is ZenDragoness




FangsNfeet -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/26/2005 11:13:47 PM)

When you observe Christmas and those who celebrate it, you'll see that there are three stages of Man.

1. You belive in Santa

2. You don't belive in Santa

3. You become Santa


I may not call it "peace" but I can say that I'm content with my achievements and the evolving I've done thanks to the life style in taking a dominant stand for myself. I have a good job which gives me discounts on medical supplies, a continuing education, and the best sub that I could ever hope to have. Not only has the life style help with asertivness and confidence, but it has also encourage me to stay in the medical field to learn more about equipment and the human body. The life style has also encourage me to study history and certain religious practacies that have made me become more culturaly aware.
I have also become more sociable and out going. I've met many people and developed better people skills. By participating in the life style I've also taken up hobbies including reading, wood work, building, leather work, knot work, sewing, and making things increasing my creativity. Most important, I've learned to be a 110% ASS HOLE when needed.

I'm very happy to be in the life style and wouldn't go back to vannilla for nothing.




IrishMist -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/27/2005 8:00:44 AM)

quote:

Without fears from the past and without hopes into the future, if you strive to reach this, being not bound by what happened in the past and do not ironize the future by determing what has to happen, you can reach being in the moment.


What a wonderful lesson there. Thankyou for sharing it.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/27/2005 8:19:25 AM)

quote:

it makes me think we are supposed to evolve into some ideal superhuman


fox,
I was actually pondering just the opposite. If the theory of evolution was a straight line scientific fact, there would only be the end result. Everything would evolve into the highest species. The existence of vibrant and functioning species who stopped at some point along the way indicates that the goal of evolution may just be diversity not one single minded objective.

That's the concept that I was applying to BDSM. Once the evolution of a person begins he/she can choose the stop the process at any point. Yet I think there is no point where a person can represent that they are evolved to the highest peak. I think there are and should be goals, but I've yet to see anyone climb the Everest of the lifestyle. I'd argue that there is no Everest, only the illusion of an Everest. Each climber stops at it's chosen peak or plateau. The one that generates self-acceptance and peace.

Sometimes self acceptance is more difficult to obtain than peer or social acceptance. But that's a topic for another thread.




caitlyn -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/27/2005 9:21:28 AM)

The "chink in the armor" for the evolution theory, is the deliniation of evolution, natural selection and adaptation. The two former tend to be a long, drawn out process, the latter can be drawn out, or happen within the wink of an eye.

The interplay of these three will always keep them theory, rather than something that can be discussed with definative proof. Even Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace admitted as much, in their discussions of how each portion was extant in the others.

To my way of thinking, this exactly mirrors what we see in this lifestyle, from my limited experience ... which is the point I believe Merc & beth were trying to make. Looking at the three, in context to this discussion:

Evolution: We will each find our appropriate level ... what we desire, what fulfills us. Event he most slavish slave, that exists for no other reason than to please the master (or mistress) is still fulfilling their own need.

Natural Selection: We all seek to find that person that has values within this lifestyle that mirrors our own. This may be painful, and take quite some time, but the very nature of human nature, seeks commonality over confrontation.

Adaptation: We all seek to survive within this lifestyle, and will normally find a way to do so. There are of course exceptions in instances where people lack mental or emotional stability, but all things being equal, we all try to adapt on some level. The product of our past experiences factors greatly, as these are the experiences that shape how we choose to adapt.

Looking at all three factors, there is clear linkage, and as Darwin and Wallace indicated, each individually is extant collectively, in the other two. Putting this on personal terms:

I have a very hard time trusting. I rarely if ever trust anyone. This is an adaptation to hurt done in the past ... and shapes my evolution and natural selection.

While not the most unintelligent person in the world, I'm very immature and make decision based on whim, rather than reason. This is evolution, because I don't have the foundation to have more maturity, and shapes my natural selection and adaptation.

I tend to be attracted to partners that are not clingy and where our demands on each other are very light. This is natural selection, and is influences adaptation: you don't need trust in that sort of relationship ... and evolution, in that I'm free to act without maturity, in that the relationship is really not all that mature to begin with.

So, I think all people share in these things on some level. Merc & beth are obviously more mature and formed individuals, and are ready for a more meaningful relationship. This is what makes them happy, and what gives them peace. People at my maturity level would probably falter in that sort of relationship.

Peace comes in knowing yourself and what you can handle. If you push any of the factors of evolution, natural selection, or adaptation, beyond what is right for you, there will be no peace.

Sorry for writing a book ... cc [:D]




Mercnbeth -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/27/2005 10:06:20 AM)

quote:

While not the most unintelligent person in the world, I'm very immature and make decision based on whim, rather than reason. This is evolution, because I don't have the foundation to have more maturity, and shapes my natural selection and adaptation.


cailyn,
This comment is the reason I included maturity into the equation. I feel that regardless of the opportunity, or personal ability (intelligence); if a person doesn't possess a mature attitude decisions have a better chance of being wrong. But wrong decisions aren't necessarily something to be avoided.

I share your difficulty with Trust. I'm sure my reasons and yours came from different experiences but the bottom line is the same result. In business it's not necessarily bad to not trust. In a relationship it's counterproductive. But at some point, to have a fulfilling relationship you MUST trust, and the trust must be mutual. When to give it, and when to accept it may be a defining moment of maturity. It's absolutely a defining moment of life. Its just as likely to occur at 55 as it is at 18.

Tying the two together, maturity/evolution; it can be said that without failure, without obstacle, evolution is less likely to occur. If prey didn't need to out run predator, maybe the first marine animal wouldn't have crawled on solid ground, soon to walk and run, ultimately to fly. The prey had to be ready to leave a comfortable environment, mature enough to decided to live "outside the box". It could have chosen just to stay in the water and only try not to be the slowest fish in the school, instead it chose to leave school and learn how to survive a different way.




Nendarye -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/27/2005 12:23:39 PM)

It took me a very long time to come to the crossroads that I am now at in my life. I have matured, I have evolved ( both to a small degree from where I was ), and I am learning to accept what I see as myself. It has not been easy, and I don't doubt that the road ahead will not be easy either. But it is a journey that I look forward to, because it will bring me to complete acceptance, and eventually peace.




Morgaine289 -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/27/2005 10:01:14 PM)

Your welcome Irish Mist:-).




Morgaine289 -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/27/2005 10:03:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

snip

1. You belive in Santa

2. You don't belive in Santa

3. You become Santa

snip


I am really in love with this three stages, the last days due to the time of the year gave me the oppurtunity to quote you with a lot of success. Reactions ranging from laughing to deep thinking.




veronicaofML -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/27/2005 10:39:04 PM)

Yet I think there is no point where a person can represent that they are evolved to the highest peak.
Merc n beth
-------------------

i suppose, i am yet again going to be accused of, remaining stale...because i find no where to go.
i have perfected my skills in domestics...
there is no where for me to go.
it is literally impossible to have goals when i have reached a point of knowing my business so well....

but oh well
no one appreciates domestics slaves..they only like having a clean house coz they dont wanna do it themselves..
like having a dog to pet but they dont wanna fed em and walk em..ya know? everyone likes the fun but no one wants the responsibility.

take care




Mercnbeth -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/28/2005 11:32:14 AM)

quote:

i suppose, i am yet again going to be accused of, remaining stale...because i find no where to go.
i have perfected my skills in domestics...
there is no where for me to go.
it is literally impossible to have goals when i have reached a point of knowing my business so well....


veronica of ML,
Not at all! In fact one of the points I was trying to make is that the evolutionary process provides for stopping points where people can decide this is as far as I want to go. That becomes the point of acceptance and peace. It isn't a outside reference of peace, it's an inner peace that by definition NOBODY can challenge. In fact, I'd say on of the ways a person illustrates they've achieved this state of peace is when any challenge is responded to by laughter in lieu of argument.

The quote you referenced was in the context that nobody can say their point of evolution is the highest. It's an infinite peak. If a person wanted to they could always learn more, experience more, do more. I think they'd just frustrate themselves and go crazy trying, but some people are never satisfied with who/what they are. For those so inclined, I'll provide for the possibility of seeking perfection at the same time as representing that achieving perfection is impossible.




MistressFire70 -> RE: Maturity? - Evolution? - Acceptance? - Peace? (12/28/2005 4:59:30 PM)

Merc and beth,

I am at peace. Of course, we know that being at peace doesn't mean that we don't have desires or needs. It merely means that we are happy and grateful for the here and now. I am very happy and grateful for HERE and NOW. I know that my feet are set upon a path that is beyond imagining. I am finding those who are meant to belong to me...and I am fulfilled in a way that only those who have had the same emotion can understand.

Perhaps I will see you at Southwest Leather Conference in Jan? I do hope so. My girl anne and I will be there. Please find us and say hi!

Fire




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