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RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 12:52:48 AM   
Naga


Posts: 147
Joined: 10/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Speak for yourself.


Deal with the facts. It is why socialism doesn't work. Even the Pilgrims experimented with it. It failed miserably, as it always does.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 12:53:40 AM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline 		I was going to say nonsense or something else...    M

_____________________________

The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig

Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 12:54:55 AM   
Naga


Posts: 147
Joined: 10/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
As usual, I wasted my time putting up a link for someone who wishes to remain willfully ignorant.


As usual, you did two seconds of research without looking at the whole issue. A single link does not research make and only betrays your own ignorance.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 12:55:55 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Speak for yourself.


Deal with the facts. It is why socialism doesn't work. Even the Pilgrims experimented with it. It failed miserably, as it always does.

Modified Socialism seems to work just fine in Europe. Of course, I haven't been across the pond 9 times, and don't read or speak any German, so I know nothing about it.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Naga)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 1:01:00 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
As usual, I wasted my time putting up a link for someone who wishes to remain willfully ignorant.


As usual, you did two seconds of research without looking at the whole issue. A single link does not research make and only betrays your own ignorance.
So you still haven't looked at the link to see the cost comparisons for such illegal procedures as knee replacements and the like. Here, I'll do it for you, just this one time, as a public service.

Medical Tourism Sample Surgery Cost Chart





USA

India

Thailand

Singapore

Costa Rica

Korea


Heart Bypass

$130,000

$9,300

$11,000

$16,500

$24,000

$34,150



Heart Valve Replacement
$160,000

$9,000

$10,000

$12,500

$15,000

$29,500


Angioplasty

$57,000

$7,500

$13,000

$11,200

$9,000

$19,600


Hip Replacement

$43,000

$7,100

$12,000

$9,200

$12,000

$11,400


Hysterectomy

$20,000

$6,000

$4,500

$6,000

$4,000

$12,700


Knee Replacement

$40,000

$8,500

$10,000

$11,100

$11,000

$24,100
 
Well, that got screwed up, but I'm too tired to fix it.


< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 12/5/2008 1:03:48 AM >

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Naga)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 1:04:31 AM   
moonvine


Posts: 780
Joined: 11/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga





And what stats say we are 37th? References, please.




Not that I think you will give credence to anything that doesn't fit your agenda, but the WHO (World Health Organization) studied 123 countries and we came out 37th.  France came out 1st.  We're getting our ass kicked by France:p

Check out "Sick Around The World" - if you have Netflix you can watch it instantly on there.  Any openminded people I would especially urge to check it out.:)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/etc/notebook.html

(in reply to Naga)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 1:06:39 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: moonvine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga





And what stats say we are 37th? References, please.




Not that I think you will give credence to anything that doesn't fit your agenda, but the WHO (World Health Organization) studied 123 countries and we came out 37th.  France came out 1st.  We're getting our ass kicked by France:p

Check out "Sick Around The World" - if you have Netflix you can watch it instantly on there.  Any openminded people I would especially urge to check it out.:)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/etc/notebook.html

But PBS is liberal commie propaganda.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to moonvine)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 1:23:54 AM   
moonvine


Posts: 780
Joined: 11/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: moonvine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga





And what stats say we are 37th? References, please.




Not that I think you will give credence to anything that doesn't fit your agenda, but the WHO (World Health Organization) studied 123 countries and we came out 37th.  France came out 1st.  We're getting our ass kicked by France:p

Check out "Sick Around The World" - if you have Netflix you can watch it instantly on there.  Any openminded people I would especially urge to check it out.:)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/etc/notebook.html

But PBS is liberal commie propaganda.


Well, anything that doesn't say "the US has the bestest health care system in the whole wide world, and everyone else sucks" is going to be "liberal commie propaganda."   The links are more for people with open minds.  Shrug.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 2:50:46 AM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		Back to colleges..... In the State of Georgia if a high school student maintains a B average he or she is available for the Hope Scholarship which will pay for most of the cost of classes in the state university system and is paid for by the state lottery. The student must maintain the 3.0 or better through college to maintain the scholarship. It will also pay the student $300.00 for books per semester. For some courses of study there are other programs as well that will pick up other costs based on the selected major.
In the community colleges there is a system of Hope Scholarships that the B average doesn't even apply to. So, all those states with lotteries and all that have legalized gambling could apply those revenues to education and the availability of education becomes reality with little more that a few dollars out of pocket. Imagine that, a state issued education system that works for higher education. I have one child that graduated a year ago and another that is a freshman now, IT WORKS! I see it, I benefit from it and both of my children have gotten or are getting solid college educations. I am a graduate of a state university as are my family members from both sets of parents down, the opportunity afforded those who wish to pursue an education is not lost....at least not here in Georgia and it is the reason my son is not a studet at Indiana University although his father thinks he should be, it just dosen't make sense not to use what is available through his own hard work and dedication to his studies.

(in reply to moonvine)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 5:49:31 AM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline 		This is a great opportunity, almost worthy of a move south when the uhm gets older.   M

_____________________________

The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig

Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm

(in reply to SilverMark)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 6:27:00 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Well, there are obviously too many people walking around with degrees in this country now.
Either that or they "intended" to get a degree and then work at Home Depot, Starbucks, Bestbuy, Costco or as waitresses and waiters at restaurants.
Plenty of jobs for M.D.s and Nurses but, everyone wants to be a psychologist/sociologist/political scientist.
It's called, "The Law of Supply and Demand."

Well, if one wants to eat...
I am now seeing part-time, entry level jobs requiring a Bach. degree.

Far too many college grads are working for Home Depot or Costco because I think upto 200,000 PER YEAR are brought in from other countries as they are paid 1/2 as much as our graduates.

In the HR depts. they call it 2fers meaning they can hire 2 foreign college grads for the price of one domestic grad.

When will people learn if they haven't by now with all of this continuing socialism for the rich.

THIS COUNTRY'S BUSINESS PEOPLE AT THE TOP IN CORP. AND WALL STREETIS ARE ALL ABOUT MONEY, MONEY AND MORE MONEY. THE CAPITALISTS/COPORATISTS WANTS HIS SLAVES BACK SO HE  CAN STEAL ALL OF HIS LABOR...FOR ENTIRE LIVES.

He can't have them so they engineer investments. taxes create new paper upon which they want to speculate, shift jobs to the Chinese 'gulag' (a billion peasants) force them to work as virtual slave labor and we are partying now.

The capitalist/corporatist doesn't give a damn about you, the country, businesses or anything else but carving out a profit and as required put eveybody else at risk and in debt. With these bailouts...they now have confirmed the plutocracy...govt. of money, by money and for money.

We bitch about lending money to the auto cos.. I mean who did they think they worked for, Citicorp ? Yet, it has been and always will be bailouts/socialism for the rich with taxpayers talking all of the risk.

I am thinking from what I continue to read in the blogs...NOBODY is learning about the immorality and bankruptcy of capitalism. You'll see no so-called 'creative destruction' on wall street or the big banks. They are too big (and rich and connected) to fail.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 6:34:03 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: moonvine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

And what stats say we are 37th? References, please.


Not that I think you will give credence to anything that doesn't fit your agenda, but the WHO (World Health Organization) studied 123 countries and we came out 37th.  France came out 1st.  We're getting our ass kicked by France:p

Check out "Sick Around The World" - if you have Netflix you can watch it instantly on there.  Any openminded people I would especially urge to check it out.:)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/etc/notebook.html

But PBS is liberal commie propaganda.

Oh yes, well aside from sarcasm...I much prefer my liberal commie propaganda from PBS than from those liberal commies on wall street who at the snap of their fingers...get Wash, to come up with some collectivization of our tax money to bail those commies leaders out.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 6:46:23 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Speak for yourself.


Deal with the facts. It is why socialism doesn't work. Even the Pilgrims experimented with it. It failed miserably, as it always does.

Once and for all...get a god damned grip kinkroids. SOCIALISM works just fine for bankers, wall street, investors and farmers.

They just don't want you calling it that. We have TRILLIONS of $$ of SOCIALISM for the RICH and now as we blog.

Just what the hell do people think is going on right in front of their eyes ?

The capitalist are partying now on what was going to be $500 MILLION of bonuses WITH OUR MONEY.

This greedy scum (capitalist) is PISSING IN YOUR FACE and telling you how much love his watersports.


(in reply to Naga)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 6:55:44 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMAAM1

I don't believe that at all.
Many countries in Europe fund education, and their citizens don't seem to discard it as useless. Working and borrowing up the eyeball for it only means that unless you are from a wealthy family, you will be in debt forever, and have limited to no credit for almost ever.


You can not believe it all you want. There is a reason that a lot of people come here for their education. We have better education because there is competition.

quote:

This is of course part of the problem with health care being a commodity for profit.
Oh hell, I might as well be out as hating many parts (if not most) of the BS (non)free market economy. M


Which is only a problem until you consider the alternatives. Free health care plain sucks. And again, why a lot of people pay crazy money to come here for health care. It beats dying while you are waiting for the "free" version.

So just where are all of those dead Brits, Canadians and Europeans. You are buying the capitalist propaganda. Medical care and medicine in the US is NOT about that...it is about MONEY.

Europeans and Canadians are now LIVING LONGER (spend 30% LESS for the same or better healthcare) than Americans, have more liesure time are as or more productive.

I'd call that considering all meaures...enjoying a HIGHER standard of living.

(in reply to Naga)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 7:31:21 AM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline 		I could not and would not consider this a hit against rugged individualism. Not everyone is interested in a college education, or would take advantage of one if it was made available. Think about it, Public schools through High School are free. Our Drop out rate from High School is one of the highest in the world  outside of third world countries. http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/droppub_2001/ has the last compilation. Some go on to get their GED, often many years later. Many do not.

Some will attend Vocational Colleges, learning trades that they are interested in from Automobile Mechanics to Medical Technicians and Transcriptionists. Some will enter the job market directly. Some will enter Apprenticeship Programs such as for Plumbing, Electrical Work, HVAC and other things because this is where their Interest and Talent Lies. Some will earn A.A.'s and that is where they will stop.

Others will go on for a Higher Education IF they can afford it. That is the crux of the matter I think. Parents scrimp and save for their kids to attend college if they want. The kids themselves work summer jobs and put part of it aside for College especially if they have a "calling" that requires it. We complain about the cost of going to a doctor but the average doctor got out of medical school owing  $120,000 in 2005 with an entry level salary of $37,000 to $45,000 according to http://www.amsa.org/tnp/articles/article.cfx?id=229 nearly twice what newly minted attorneys and engineers owed. There are only so many scholarships and grants to go around. This means their families and they are paying the bulk of the cost out of pocket. The average tuition for the first year is $25,000. Additionally, there are fees for books, housing, meals, student fees, traveling, etc. Public Schools are about $10,000 if you’re an in state student. Out of state students can expect to pay well over $22,000 for a public medical school. That is not for the top schools and we are also talking 8 YEARS of school..or  $200,000 just for the school tuition and does not cover the incidentals of living. If your family (and trust me unless your parents are deceased or you are married, Colleges require your parents financial information when they are figuring out your Financial aid), is earning 50,000 a year, paying out 25K a year is a hardship. Forget about it for the poor family, scholarships, aid and grants are the only way that student is going to be able to attempt it. The Minimum wage flex job isn't going to go far and something has to give there as well..time to study. Frankly I want my Doctor to have graduated well above 800 in a class of 850.

Should College be available to anyone who can pass the entrance exams, to those who have focused on attending from Grade school on. Yes. At least in my opinion and we all know what that is worth. Yes students should have to bear the cost, but tuition has risen astronomically through the years rising 147 % where the average income has not.

Colleges should go back to being a "grind", too often like our public schools they are catering to the lowest common denominator. Courses like Star Trek the Prime Directive or Soap Operas 101 should be scrapped for more Ethics courses or business courses that everyone who is not on a MBA course should still have under their belt.

We as a country need to start supporting our educational needs. Education is often where the first cuts come when budgets are revamped, but without a proper education from Kindergarten to College if the student decides to attend we as a country will be the losers in the long run.

poenkitten (who worked her way through an AA, but couldn't afford to go further)

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 1:26:44 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
You've just demonstrated why the US has a superior system, patients don't appreciate their medical care unless they can pay tens of thousands of dollars for it.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 1:34:11 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I could not and would not consider this a hit against rugged individualism.


Well that's true, because for the most part "formal education" would be more synonymous with conformity than individualism.

But, to put that aside for a moment, education is one doorway from the lower classes up, and prohibitive costs are effectively nailing that door shut.

As for your drop out rate argument, there are studies that indicate that if students know they can go to college (scholarships, etc.) then they are much more likely to finish high school and put effort into their studies. But for an inner city kid in Baltimore, the zoned HS is really a road to nowhere, hence the drop out rates are as high as 66%.

When I think of America, I like to think of it as the LAND OF OPPORTUNITY. Sky-rocketing tuition costs make it more the Land of the Privileged.

(in reply to BlackPhx)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 3:25:38 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Well, there are obviously too many people walking around with degrees in this country now.
Either that or they "intended" to get a degree and then work at Home Depot, Starbucks, Bestbuy, Costco or as waitresses and waiters at restaurants.
Plenty of jobs for M.D.s and Nurses but, everyone wants to be a psychologist/sociologist/political scientist.
It's called, "The Law of Supply and Demand."

Well, if one wants to eat...
I am now seeing part-time, entry level jobs requiring a Bach. degree.

Far too many college grads are working for Home Depot or Costco because I think upto 200,000 PER YEAR are brought in from other countries as they are paid 1/2 as much as our graduates.

In the HR depts. they call it 2fers meaning they can hire 2 foreign college grads for the price of one domestic grad.

When will people learn if they haven't by now with all of this continuing socialism for the rich.

THIS COUNTRY'S BUSINESS PEOPLE AT THE TOP IN CORP. AND WALL STREETIS ARE ALL ABOUT MONEY, MONEY AND MORE MONEY. THE CAPITALISTS/COPORATISTS WANTS HIS SLAVES BACK SO HE  CAN STEAL ALL OF HIS LABOR...FOR ENTIRE LIVES.

He can't have them so they engineer investments. taxes create new paper upon which they want to speculate, shift jobs to the Chinese 'gulag' (a billion peasants) force them to work as virtual slave labor and we are partying now.

The capitalist/corporatist doesn't give a damn about you, the country, businesses or anything else but carving out a profit and as required put eveybody else at risk and in debt. With these bailouts...they now have confirmed the plutocracy...govt. of money, by money and for money.

We bitch about lending money to the auto cos.. I mean who did they think they worked for, Citicorp ? Yet, it has been and always will be bailouts/socialism for the rich with taxpayers talking all of the risk.

I am thinking from what I continue to read in the blogs...NOBODY is learning about the immorality and bankruptcy of capitalism. You'll see no so-called 'creative destruction' on wall street or the big banks. They are too big (and rich and connected) to fail.


Another great post from Mr.Rodgers.
Think about this from another angle Mr. Rodgers.
 
I got nervous when a lot of this "free market" crap was sold to us, and the citizens did not
do enough to protest and cut down on the crap 25 years ago.
I have noticed a lot of imported "professionals" from all over the world being brought in
for many white collar professions.
Do you think the same people that sat back and allowed many of the manufacturing jobs to go overseas
really are going to care about the influx of "imported professionals" being brought in now?
Does anyone really know what time it is?
Does anyone really care?

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 3:44:52 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


You've just demonstrated why the US has a superior system, patients don't appreciate their medical care unless they can pay tens of thousands of dollars for it.
I'm going to borrow a GreedyTop expression here...

>>>SNORT<<<

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The New Economic US Caste System - 12/5/2008 3:48:24 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Mia, I have a friend who is a Bio-Chemist in Boston. He's from Ireland and makes half what the U.S. Scientists make.
If he gets U.S. Citizenship he'll probably be let go.
Those H1b visas are usually grabbed up the very first day the govt releases them.
Companies want them not because there's a labor shortage but because they can pay half what an American is paid.
There is no labor shortage!
In a "labor shortage" wages are going up not down!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 40
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