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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/5/2008 12:18:18 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

while we are at it- lets buy every one a new car, (cheaper then a big 3 bail out)


Of all the ridiculous simplistic ideas floated in this thread, this tops them.

Let's buy 300,000,000 Americans relatively inexpensive cars at $20,000 each. That's $6 trillion.

Play with the numbers from there, but whatever you parse, it's still not cheaper.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 12/5/2008 12:19:05 PM >

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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/5/2008 2:24:56 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Let's buy 300,000,000 Americans relatively inexpensive cars at $20,000 each. That's $6 trillion.

Yet the government is prepared to spend over $7 Trillion bailing out a select few on Wall Street.

Yes, the idea is absurd....but is it really that different from what is actually happening? Seriously.

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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/5/2008 3:20:12 PM   
UncleNasty


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Status: offline 		CL, my comment "Don't just do something. Stand there" was intended humorously. On the other hand that would often be a more effective intitial approach. Given more time to deliberate chances of a good "something" to do being decided upon go up quickly. Bazooka Joe said "Take plenty of time to make a quick decision." Wisdom from any source, LOL.

As for buying cars for all, I think playing with the numbers does make a difference MM. Consider perhaps doing that only for adults and only for citizens and the 300,000,000 million goes down. Negotiate with auto makers for bulk pricing and that price goes down too. For instance 200,000,000 autos at $15,000 each and your $6,000,000,000,000 is quickly cut in half.

Compare every adult citizen benefitting directly for $3 trillion to only a selct few benefitting directly for $7.76 trillion. Seems an easy decision.

But trickle up was never an option, and likely never will be.

OHUN

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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/5/2008 3:26:38 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

CL, my comment "Don't just do something. Stand there" was intended humorously.

UN, all humor begins with truth....and in this case the truth is that "doing nothing" would be the best course of action to take, both in the short and long run. When paper money is chasing paper debt existing as a multiple of paper assets, letting the whole pile of paper collapse would be the first step towards stability.

I would love for the government to just stand there. I have no reason to believe that they will, so, moving past the question of doing nothing vs doing something, we now are left with the question of the most benign (or least malignant) something government can do.

At that point, I believe the idea of a tax holiday has merit.

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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/5/2008 4:54:58 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Excuse me, guys----

The position I questioned was buying a car for all Americans as cheaper than bailing out the "Big Three."

Where the fuck did $7 trillion come from? That's 200 times what the auto guys are asking for.

If you want to give a (frankly cheap given the figures I used) car to one out of every 200 Americans as less expensive, then go ahead and make the case.

It will still be silly, but at least will pass the math test.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 12/5/2008 4:55:36 PM >

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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/5/2008 5:33:22 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

The position I questioned was buying a car for all Americans as cheaper than bailing out the "Big Three."

Where the fuck did $7 trillion come from? That's 200 times what the auto guys are asking for.

The $7 trillion figure comes from a Bloomberg report putting the total cost of the financial/credit market bailouts being undertaken thus far.

To be fair, your original point should stand--buying a car for all Americans is not cheaper than bailing out the "Big Three".

My point, which is divergent from yours, is that if the one act of government largesse is absurd, how much more absurd is the real act of government largesse that is, by even conservative measures, far more costly than the hypothetical?


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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/6/2008 4:52:39 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Now I know why Chicago is a special place.  I miss the man in the street opinion.    Maybe there is some hope after all.

the buy everyone a car was said flip, to illustrate the absurdity of all the bail outs.

what people are not hearing is that the companies could still exist per a bankruptcy.  personally I dont care who now gets bailed out.  I see it all as a TV mini series.

back at bear stearns someone warned of setting precedent.  well now the cat is out of the bag.

things will not settle down until the gobalists have us begging for the amero.  and we will.    dont eat for 30 days... and then tell me the idea is far fetched.

there is another option.  that is to coin money BY THE GOVT per the US consitution, backed by metals, with a fixed exchange.  The US is the only country that can immdediately do so, thus we could lead the world this way.
short of that, self rule is DRAD!     Game over.

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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/6/2008 5:06:46 AM   
CatdeMedici


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Status: offline 		The problem with this is the cost for most employers to change their payroll system to stop taking out taxes and the damage to audit and control systems.

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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/6/2008 6:13:35 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Now, if someone DID want to kill the auto industry in the U.S.--all manufacturers, in fact--giving everyone a new car would definitely accomplish that. Between the new cars and the wealth of used cars, no one would buy a new car for years, and when we finally needed new ones, all autos and virtually all manufacturing (steel, etc. all rely heavily on the auto industry) would be outside the U.S.

The poster's point about distributing cars as cheaper than loaning to the Big 3 (and not that I'm in favor, but we did make money on the Chrysler deal in the 70s) is a classic example of decision making by soundbite instead of thinking things through. Attitude isn't problem solving.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 12/6/2008 6:59:30 AM >

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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/6/2008 7:53:20 AM   
Lorr47


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
It is more economically efficient, less costly, and less distorting than any other stimulus package.  It is vastly superior to any bailout scheme.

Assertions without evidence.

The fact is that if we, as all signs indicate, entering a deflationary period then we cannot start applying fixes that don't put people back to work. Tax holidays will not do it.

Infrastructure projects and the like will.


If we have massive infrastructure projects repairing roads, bridges and dams at least we will have repaired roads, bridges and dams at the end of the project.  What are we getting for all the money being given to bankers?  Maybe I am aligned with those wanting instant gratification but I do not see Wall Street remotely responding except to pay dividends, salaries and buying other banks.  Let's build a new highway system with new bridges, roadways and dams.  Maybe my step sons will be able to obtain employment and repurchase their homes from the banks.

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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/6/2008 8:37:36 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

The problem with this is the cost for most employers to change their payroll system to stop taking out taxes and the damage to audit and control systems.

Having been a payroll clerk and an accountant, I can assure you that cost is minimal--simply set the percentage rates to 0 in the tax tables and it's done, then reverse it on a specific date.  There is no "damage" to audit and control systems attendant upon such a change.  Changes in withholding calculations are de rigeur for any payroll system, and the audit and control systems in place already deal with such changes. 

While the cost is non-zero, the cost of this stimulus mechanism is far less than the administrative cost of the Treasury mailing out a few hundred million stimulus checks.  There is a cost to this idea, but you would be challenged to show that this is not the lowest-cost alternative.


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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/6/2008 8:47:35 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

the administrative cost of the Treasury mailing out a few hundred million stimulus checks


Here I agree. This was among the stupidest things the government has ever done. Nothing but public relations.

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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/6/2008 8:49:25 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Now, if someone DID want to kill the auto industry in the U.S.--all manufacturers, in fact--giving everyone a new car would definitely accomplish that. Between the new cars and the wealth of used cars, no one would buy a new car for years, and when we finally needed new ones, all autos and virtually all manufacturing (steel, etc. all rely heavily on the auto industry) would be outside the U.S.

An excellent point.

One might also drive the concept in the other direction and argue that the industry suffers because cars last too long--instead of buying everyone a car, the U.S could mandate that no car over 3 years old is "street legal", and thus force people to buy more cars now and in the future.  Of course, that would kill off other economic sectors by soaking up people's disposable income more or less permanently (I can see housing and new home construction suffering significantly because of such a move).

All of which underscores the utter economic absurdity of the bailout schemes being undertaken and being proposed before Congress.  Of the Big Three, the only one whose assistance request I somewhat respect is Ford's--a "stand-by" line of credit which it claims to possibly be able to avoid tapping.  So far, I have seen little from either the Big Three or the UAW (regardless of one's stance on unions they are a major factor in the future of the Big Three) on what guarantees and assurances there are that any monies provided will be spent wisely and ultimately paid back.

The government interventions to "save" the economy have become a perverted scheme of total risk transfer--away from buyers and sellers in the marketplace to taxpayers, who are being asked to cover any and all mistakes.  Since the taxpayers are the ones ultimately being asked to foot the bill, let's at least put the money directly in their hands and let them figure out what to do with it.


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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/6/2008 9:22:09 AM   
awmslave


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Status: offline 		The idea behind "tax holiday" is to increase spending money by population. Without spending US government vision of new "service economy" does not work. 

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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/6/2008 9:36:00 AM   
CatdeMedici


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

The problem with this is the cost for most employers to change their payroll system to stop taking out taxes and the damage to audit and control systems.

Having been a payroll clerk and an accountant, I can assure you that cost is minimal--simply set the percentage rates to 0 in the tax tables and it's done, then reverse it on a specific date.  There is no "damage" to audit and control systems attendant upon such a change.  Changes in withholding calculations are de rigeur for any payroll system, and the audit and control systems in place already deal with such changes. 

While the cost is non-zero, the cost of this stimulus mechanism is far less than the administrative cost of the Treasury mailing out a few hundred million stimulus checks.  There is a cost to this idea, but you would be challenged to show that this is not the lowest-cost alternative.



add to that, payroll tax paid to the government has to change, Income tax tables have to change, social security calculations have to change, medicare calculations have to change, 401K calculations have to change, people who can only make a certain amount each year and not lose benefits could be screwed---no it extends far beyond simple payroll calculation changes.

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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/6/2008 9:41:21 AM   
bestbabync


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Status: offline 		the funds for this stimulus package will go to who if not us?  the banks?  so, tell me this, what has the banks done with the funds they have recieved so far?  saved and bought out their competitors, rarely did they spend or stimulate the economy by making loans with that bailout money!  i believe giving taxpayers a chance with the bailout funds is only fair!  the taxpayers will spend, save or invest the money!  how can our choices be worse for the economy?

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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/6/2008 9:56:21 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

no it extends far beyond simple payroll calculation changes.

No, it doesn't.

"Tax holiday" means just that.  The amount that would normally be deducted isn't.  401(k) calculations aren't affected, because those contributions are made pre-tax.  You deduct the 401(k) contribution, then pay zero tax on the remainder.

Social security and medicare calculations--make those zero as well.  Also a simple change in any payroll system.  Or leave them alone--the amounts are calculated on the gross income for the pay period, so the tax holiday has no impact (although I would declare a tax holiday on social security and medicare taxes before I would on income tax--the regressive nature of those taxes is beyond perverse and venturing into obscene).

For employers, they simply send in their form 941 with a big fat ZERO on it for those months covered by the tax holiday.  Also not hard.

While I grant that the administrative cost of a tax holiday is not zero, I do point out that the tax holiday mechanism is the least cost route of putting more disposable income in the hands of taxpayers--which is the ultimate goal of "economic stimulus".


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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/6/2008 10:02:38 AM   
Thunderbird56


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Status: offline 		Although I could, I'm not going to argue the merits, or demerits of *this* stimulus package or *that* stimulus package.

The government caused this financial crisis in the first place! Sure, others are culpable, but to look to the government to solve this problem that they caused is idiotic! It's like they are saying, "Hey Buddy!" ... "Wanna buy the Brooklyn Bridge ... Again"!

Don't let the prospect of some "free stuff" persuade you that this is a good idea.

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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/6/2008 10:03:55 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:


Don't let the prospect of some "free stuff" persuade you that this is a good idea.

Agreed.  I avoid the "free stuff"--it costs too damn much.


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RE: Stop Income Tax For Two Months - 12/6/2008 10:17:10 AM   
bestbabync


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Status: offline 		TB, the taxfree stimulus package would be funded from the already $750billion bailout! 

that is what Rep. Gohmert proposed that instead of giving the remaining funds to the banks etc, give it to the taxpayers in a stimulus package. 

i have expressed my hatred for that damn bailout bill!  the companies & banks that recieved the first half did not deserve it.  has the bailout from October worked so far?  i say, no.  why not plan B? bailout main street with the already stolen money!

< Message edited by bestbabync -- 12/6/2008 10:19:02 AM >

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