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understanding myself - 12/7/2008 9:36:52 AM

NextDoorMan

Posts: 15
Joined: 8/3/2008
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I often confuse myself, so I shouldn't be surprised that I confuse other people. I find that the very things I hate most to the outside world are the things I crave the most with an intimate partner.

I am humiliated by the fact that I crave physical and verbal abuse. To the point that it has destroyed what possibly could have been very satisfying D/s relationships. Yet these very same cravings have destroyed what otherwise could have been healthy vanilla relationships. Healthy, but not happy, due to the fact that something I have longed for has been missing.

Is it all or nothing? Do I have to give up my nonsubmissive side to find happiness in a submissive relationship? I have tried to give up my submission to find happiness in a vanilla relationship, that simply did not work. In my most recent relationship the woman did a wonderful job of seperating the two aspects of our lives. But while in vanilla situations, when I looked into her eyes I saw the reflection of myself as a submissive, and that humiliated me. And in that setting I found the humiliation crippling.

I don't see myself as a 24/7 submissive, but sometimes I wonder if that might be some solution that I haven't explored.

Post #: 1

RE: understanding myself - 12/7/2008 9:45:19 AM

Rover

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It's just my opinion, but I think you set yourself up for internal conflict when you view yourself as having a "submissive side" and a "vanilla side" in competition with one another. I think you'll be a lot happier, healthier and less conflicted when you can see and accept yourself as someone who enjoys submitting with the right partner, and enjoys humiliation, physical and verbal abuse under the right circumstances with that partner.

It's all you... one you.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to NextDoorMan)

Post #: 2

RE: understanding myself - 12/7/2008 9:48:51 AM

CatdeMedici

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Joined: 10/20/2008
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what I am about to say is not glib or trite, it is written with much meaning and much experience with others who felt the same way.

Humiliation will eat you alive.

It appears you feel humiliatiion in "that world" because you seek this one--"it isn't manly to be a submissive" and seek it in this world to appease your conscience for seeking what you do.

No person, no Dominant, no vanilla woman can help you come to terms. They have no magic bullet that will shatter your feelings and set you free--it has to come from inside you. Walking through the doors of this world does not sprinkle you with magic water that washes away baggage, shame, or humiliation. Only you can conquer that. It appears that you have had Dominants that offered you a supporting and growing environment and yet you have shunned it as with the vanilla world. You will continue to do so until you come to terms.

It starts with self acceptance My friend until you have that, you bring nothing to either world and less to yourself.

<edited for typo>

< Message edited by CatdeMedici -- 12/7/2008 10:48:26 AM >

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Post #: 3

RE: understanding myself - 12/7/2008 10:40:53 AM

DreamsOfSpider

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Is there anyone you know who you're close to, who you could maybe talk to about this?

It's a risky strategy, because there's a chance that they'll react poorly, and that wouldn't help at all. I'm just thinking of the last time I seriously struggled with shame, when I was trying to deal with being gay... and the thing that helped most was coming out to someone, and having them tell me it was okay. We're social animals, you know?

The other thing that helps is time. Time spent trying not to beat yourself up, metaphorically speaking, over something you can't help. There's a quote that really struck home for me, once: "Guilt is feeling bad about something you've done. Shame is feeling bad about something you are." And you can change what you do, of course... but you can't change what you are. And, you know -- I hope you know, even if your feelings don't match your knowledge yet -- there's nothing wrong with what you are.

(in reply to CatdeMedici)

Post #: 4

RE: understanding myself - 12/7/2008 10:51:12 AM

Lockit

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I'm with Rover on this one. Divided it is hard to stand. Try to accept that you are all that you are and accept blending it all. Find out what you get from feeling guilty or humiliated. Find a way to stop the 'should's and 'should not's' and just 'be'. As long as we view things as wrong, we limit being able to accept them and enjoy them enough to be enhanced by them and are often feeding off of the 'badness' of it all somehow.

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Post #: 5

RE: understanding myself - 12/7/2008 10:53:51 AM

SimplyMichael

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Joined: 1/7/2007
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Being a male submissive takes bigger balls than any other role in bdsm. Being the uber studly male dom with our little harems isn't exactly taxing on the male ego. Women being submissive is a classic role of women. Being a female dom does risk a bit of the "bitch" label but none of these tax the ego and self image as hard as being a male submissive so when I meet a strong healthy male submissive I always treat them with the utmost respect because I so admire the strength it takes to openly embrace that role.

quote:

But while in vanilla situations, when I looked into her eyes I saw the reflection of myself as a submissive, and that humiliated me. And in that setting I found the humiliation crippling.

Oh that line just breaks my heart! However, there are two very distinct aspects of this. One is how you project onto her what she "sees". The typical thing of the woman seeing someone she loves and adores but instead of you accepting that, you project an image of weakness and patheticness. You just can't believe she sees you as a real man.

Then there is the possibility that how she looked at you really is as a weak and pathetic man. The trick is to talk to her about it, see if you can hear that she really does see you as a desirable man OR to realize that she doesn't. It is, for many, the hardest thing to truly believe in our core.

With the greatest of respect, I wish you well and hope that you find peace with this.

(in reply to CatdeMedici)

Post #: 6

RE: understanding myself - 12/7/2008 12:21:47 PM

Lashra

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I do not quite understand why you would find submission as being "humilating"? Could it be because your male and you believe that submission makes a person weak and of secondary status? If so, you are not alone many people believe that. I do not happen to be one of them. I think it takes a hell of a lot more strength to be a submissive.

Sounds to me like you need to do some soul searching to find some inner peace. Also your not alone in that, my male sub went through the same thing when he went from master in a past relationship to being my submissive. It takes time but eventually you find what suits you.

Good luck,
~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to NextDoorMan)

Post #: 7

RE: understanding myself - 12/7/2008 1:41:57 PM

natasha66

Posts: 321
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: NJ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

It's just my opinion, but I think you set yourself up for internal conflict when you view yourself as having a "submissive side" and a "vanilla side" in competition with one another. I think you'll be a lot happier, healthier and less conflicted when you can see and accept yourself as someone who enjoys submitting with the right partner, and enjoys humiliation, physical and verbal abuse under the right circumstances with that partner.

It's all you... one you.

John

Well said. i used to try to keep the two separate, then realized i was making myself crazy. i'm just ME. i can't and won't submit to anyone/everyone (just not who i am), but with the right partner, i'm totally free to be myself.

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(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 8

RE: understanding myself - 12/7/2008 3:09:17 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

It's just my opinion, but I think you set yourself up for internal conflict when you view yourself as having a "submissive side" and a "vanilla side" in competition with one another. I think you'll be a lot happier, healthier and less conflicted when you can see and accept yourself as someone who enjoys submitting with the right partner, and enjoys humiliation, physical and verbal abuse under the right circumstances with that partner.

It's all you... one you.

John

Noit sure that I agree with you John in the way you phrased this. Submittion ans Vanilla are not necessarily separate. After all we all submit to someone or something be it an employer or the government as in following their rules expectations etc. There are those who we may reasonably say, are submissives and yet have not (as yet) discovered the wonderfull, wacky, weird world of kink. Many in religious orders are submissive and indeed it is expected that they are thus. I suggest that the OP would be better exploring in depth his.her sumissiveness and see its extent and depth. I would also sugest that a study of Ghandi and his passive resistance as one form of submissive strength and his ability to recognise where and when resistance is apploicable and where and when submission is applicable. Perhaps a good look at the Bhudist teachings will help too. Once such explorations are complete, no matter ho long, then you can come to terms with personal submission and perhaps have gleaned sufficient insite to be able to select the people with whom to shate the Koink journey..

Others of course will see this differently and as there is no global right or wrong each will have something important to share..

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(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 9

RE: understanding myself - 12/7/2008 3:24:55 PM

yourMissTress

Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Being a male submissive takes bigger balls than any other role in bdsm. Being the uber studly male dom with our little harems isn't exactly taxing on the male ego. Women being submissive is a classic role of women. Being a female dom does risk a bit of the "bitch" label but none of these tax the ego and self image as hard as being a male submissive so when I meet a strong healthy male submissive I always treat them with the utmost respect because I so admire the strength it takes to openly embrace that role.

Michael, thank you for stating this, it's so true.

I have more respect for the men who are men, true to themselves and honest with others about who they are and what they want. There is nothing to be ashamed of and everything to be proud of in being who you are. The dichotomy is possibly confusing, but when you resolve those issues within yourself, you will become so much more self aware and be a happier person for it.

Being a 24/7 submissive does not necessarily mean that you are on your knees and serving and being humiliated 24/7. Find someone who can strike the balance that makes you comfortable.

Oh, and as usual, what John said is good advice.

< Message edited by yourMissTress -- 12/7/2008 3:27:26 PM >

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Tress

"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 10

RE: understanding myself - 12/7/2008 3:31:16 PM

greeneyedreamer

Posts: 442
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Being a male submissive takes bigger balls than any other role in bdsm.

Well nicely stated in the reply... I agree and it's sad that he can't just see love and adoration in her eyes...When I look into my Dom's eyes, I see adoration and admiration for who I am as a person, not just as a submissive.

Dreamer

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 11

RE: understanding myself - 12/7/2008 3:51:52 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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In the end you going to have to find the solution within yourself and not externally. Externally you can validate what you believe to be true... no matter what that belief might be. So the question is what do you choose to believe? For belief is a choice based on the standards, values and principles that you are choosing to hold to.

It appears to me that your humiliation is rooted internally and not by the external judgement of others. You are comparing your behaviors to the values and principles you hold to and you find yourself lacking and as such you feel humiliated. However, in the same instance you are finding pleasure from those very things that your values and principles see as humiliating. It would appear to be catch 22, but the truth is you are making a choice to feel humiliated. You either need to change the values and principle that give yourself permission to engage in the activities you find enjoyable or need to stop doing the activities themselves. It appears you have tried not to engage in the activities and with dismal results. This is not surprizing since often times those things that are sexual pleasures are very deeply rooted into us... even more so than our principles and values.

There is no easy choice or path her. It is a question of finding a path that gives yourself permission to engage in those very activities that are pleasurable and satisfying. I would say that you don't need to look at it as an either or thing. But more as the right steps makes X activity ok and any other steps would make X activity not ok. I would also suggest that you consider the consequences of the actions. Is there any harm to yourself when you engage in those activities, is anyone else harmed or negatively affected? Sometimes the positive consequences that are enjoyed are enough to shine a light in the direction you should go.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to NextDoorMan)

Post #: 12

RE: understanding myself - 12/7/2008 3:53:51 PM

beargonewild

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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Looking back upon my own struggles with my own submissive personality, I found that it all boils down to being able to understand myself on all levels: emotional, mental and spiritual. Part of the struggle is fighting against an environment which teaches men that they have to be tough, they have to be strong, they have to be this, this and this. Yet along the way it seems we lose sight of who we should be, which is ourselves in a way which suits us as a person. Granted there are times where we need to be the typical strong man for our partner or family, yet that image is just one aspect the same as our submissiveness or our gentleness, or even the arrogant idiots we men can be at times! Part to my path of self acceptance is being able to integrate all parts of who I am and do it is a fashion which makes me a whole person and a fairly well adjusted male who is submissive yet retains that core of strength that sees me through the rough spots of life.

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Post #: 13

RE: understanding myself - 12/7/2008 5:04:20 PM

Rover

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Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Noit sure that I agree with you John in the way you phrased this. Submittion ans Vanilla are not necessarily separate.

Hey, Iron Bear. I believe it's quite likely that you misread my post, as I never said anything of the sort. In fact, I was advocating quite the opposite.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 14

RE: understanding myself - 12/7/2008 9:10:18 PM

stella41b

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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
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There is nothing wrong in submission, nothing at all. Everybody submits, including the dominants, and they do so in times of stress, in times of illness, and ultimately when one succumbs finally to death.

Submission is acceptance of that which you cannot control or of that which you do not wish to control, it is confidence, it is in the acceptance of who you are, for what you are, and for the courage to be who you are and yourself without any fear, hesitation, or discomfort.

It can be just simply letting go, relinquishing, not putting up any resistance, but just allowing things to be in their natural state.

There is truth and there is perception of truth. An absolute truth, which everyone sees, is concrete. It's visible, it's there, everybody can see it. Everybody sees the same. An abstract truth is only what you perceive as the truth, it is abstract, it has no form, it requires you to define it.

Go take a look at yourself in the mirror, and what do you see? You see a man, right? You see yourself as everyone sees you, a man, and therefore the physical truth on which we are all agreed is that you are a man. You have two arms, two legs, a head, a penis, a body, and you are a man, and everyone agrees with this.

Now take another look at yourself in the mirror - who are you? Who is this man in the mirror? What makes you the man that you are? Who is the abstract you? Can you put this into words? Now you perceive yourself in abstract terms a certain way, but everyone else will only perceive you that way if they believe you, and the way they perceive you without this information will be so much different. Each and every person you come across in life will perceive you differently to the way you perceive yourself, and their perception will be based on what you tell them and their own observations from being in your presence and the interactions you share.

The answer? Be yourself, according to your own perception and definition. Understand that your life is meant to be lived with other people, not for other people. What is the point of living if you cannot be yourself?

Try to perceive yourself as an onion, with skin, with different layers, but each and every one of those layers is part of the whole and complete onion. Make the core submissive and the outer layers and the skin vanilla. Be different, individual, perceive yourself as a vanilla flavoured onion. Accept yourself as a vanilla flavoured onion.

And when you can do that you should find unity within yourself.

To be a submissive it is better to be able to submit to yourself before you submit to someone else. The same is true when it comes to acceptance.

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