Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (Full Version)

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celticlord2112 -> Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/8/2008 8:23:27 PM)

Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft

Well, crap!  Congress is determined to be reckless and stupid and downright DUMB!

Rather than allow Chapter 11 bankruptcies to free General Motors, Chrysler, and Ford to reorganize their operations on a competitive basis, Congress is determined to kill the industry with kindness, perpetuating the non-competitive, slothful, complacent attitudes that have pervaded corporate and union leadership alike.

Now is the time to write, fax, and email your congressman and Senator and demand they vote AGAINST any bailout of the auto industry.  This country, and this country's workers, deserve better from our elected representatives than this.

http://www.conservativeusa.org/mega-cong.htm




celticlord2112 -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/8/2008 8:33:51 PM)

This is the text of the email I sent to my Congressman and both Senators:

As a registered voter in your district, I implore—nay, I DEMAND—you oppose any loan or bailout of General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler.  The competitive spirit that made our country the economic marvel of the world is not served by rewarding the incompetence, blindness, and sheer stupidity of both auto industry executives and leaders of the United Auto Workers (UAW).

Our country addresses the shortcomings of businesses through an enduring cycle of creative destruction, where old enterprise continually gives way to new.  Bailing out the “Big Three” carmakers preserves a trio of dinosaurs and prevents the evolution they need to endure.

For the love of this country, preserve the auto industry.  Vote NO on any bailout of General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler.




popeye1250 -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/8/2008 11:50:27 PM)

CL, it doesn't do any good.
I called my congressman and two senators offices and told them not to bail out the banks, AIG and the brokerage houses and they did it anyway.



E2Sweet -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 12:02:16 AM)

Sorry, no can do... I have too many family members retired from the industry (or close to that age) that could lose their pensions entirely if one of the big three files... One in the family is now a widow and needs the income.



housesub4you -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 5:47:56 AM)

CL

there was a report I think in the Washington Post saying that over 95% of emails sent to elected officals in Washington are deleted after the auto response is sent. 

The best way to have your voice heard is still good old snail mail.  When I have emailed in the past, all i ever got was an auto response general reply, when I write a letter and mail it I have received back hand written letters from my elected officals



celticlord2112 -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 7:07:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

CL

there was a report I think in the Washington Post saying that over 95% of emails sent to elected officals in Washington are deleted after the auto response is sent. 

The best way to have your voice heard is still good old snail mail.  When I have emailed in the past, all i ever got was an auto response general reply, when I write a letter and mail it I have received back hand written letters from my elected officals

I agree.  Email, fax, snail mail, call their field offices....all of the above.

If ever there was a time to just say "NO!", this is it.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 7:15:07 AM)

Wow if/when this passes it should be noted for future generations. The USA nationalizes its first industry. Stay tuned for more socialism to come.

Khrushchev's projection may have been off a generation or two, but the conquest from within is playing out before our eyes. Not only are we not fighting it, but the more indoctrinated among us, are clamoring for it!

I'm fortunate to have an exit strategy and glad that I've activated it. 



cjan -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 7:15:52 AM)

Alas, there is no good solution to this mess. If the automakers go belly-up in bankruptcy, their creditors will get, at most, pennies on the dollar and may, in turn, go belly-up. Personally, I would like to see the executives who created this mess in stocks on the Capitol steps.



NeedToUseYou -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 7:22:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Wow if/when this passes it should be noted for future generations. The USA nationalizes its first industry. Stay tuned for more socialism to come.

Khrushchev's projection may have been off a generation or two, but the conquest from within is playing out before our eyes. Not only are we not fighting it, but the more indoctrinated among us, are clamoring for it!

I'm fortunate to have an exit strategy and glad that I've activated it. 


Seriously, take me with you.....

Oh, man, this shit, is scary to me, I think this must be like it was for sane people in Germany watching the Nazis take control and powerless to stop the mindless sheeple from allowing it.

I'm of mind to simply buy a fishing boat, and setup shop in some third world country at this rate.






celticlord2112 -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 7:30:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Alas, there is no good solution to this mess. If the automakers go belly-up in bankruptcy, their creditors will get, at most, pennies on the dollar and may, in turn, go belly-up. Personally, I would like to see the executives who created this mess in stocks on the Capitol steps.

Assume for the moment your scenario is the likely one (I doubt it is, but that's another discussion).

If the automakers cannot regain solvency through a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, then how will a bailout accomplish that goal?  And if these "bridge loans to nowhere" cannot restore solvency--if they will not work, in other words--then how is throwing still more dollars on the fire at all helpful?

If the Big Three's creditors have not properly accounted for the risk of extending them credit, and if the extant loans and lines of credit to the Big Three number among the "toxic debt" buried on banks' balance sheets, then shame on the banks for playing yet more financial games, and let us demand they own up to their complicity in the blundering of the Big Three to insolvency (the CEOs made all the bad decisions, with the UAW demanding all the bad labor deals, but for Wall Street not to have understood the way Detroit was being managed into the ground reeks of yet another lack of due diligence on the part of Wall Street).

Even if Chapter 11 turns into Chapter 7 for the Big Three, and even if that in turns topples some or all of their Wall Street creditors, if that collapse is inevitable, let us get the pain over and done with now.

First law of holes:  when you're in one, stop digging.  If your scenario is correct, all the bailout accomplishes is digging the hole deeper--so why do it?

None of the bailouts thus far make much sense--even the ones that at first had some semblance of reason in hindsight were complete fuckups--but this bailout is the most insane, the most inane, and the most irrational one yet.

As for putting the CEOs--along with Gettelfinger of the UAW--in the stocks on the steps of the Capitol....I'm ok with that.  Can they receive a proper scourging first?  (I'll be glad to mete out the biblical measure of 39 strokes on the chest and back).



cjan -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 7:42:39 AM)

I'm not disagreeing with you, CL. I simply said there is no good solution to the situation. I agree that a bailout, under current conditions, is simply delaying the inevitable. I'm of the opinion that the Big Three acted irresposibly for decades believing that the government would not allow them to fail. Nevertheless, they have dug their own graves and, tragically, are gonna take a lot of businesses with them.Yes, it will be painful, no matter what course of action is taken.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 7:49:27 AM)

So the damage this may do to the country justifies this? Even Obama said that the Big 3 should have reorganized and restructured 10, 20 or even 30 years ago. Bankruptcy allows them to restructure and possibly stay around for future generations to work at.


quote:

ORIGINAL: E2Sweet

Sorry, no can do... I have too many family members retired from the industry (or close to that age) that could lose their pensions entirely if one of the big three files... One in the family is now a widow and needs the income.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 8:00:27 AM)

quote:

I have too many family members retired from the industry (or close to that age) that could lose their pensions entirely if one of the big three files

The pensions are not likely at risk.

1.  The pensions are fully funded at last report.  The stock market tanking may have left Ford's a little short, but GM's--the largest--is, if anything, overfunded.

2.  The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (FDIC for Pensions), chartered under ERISA, exists to cover pension funding shortfalls.

If the Big Three lurch and lumber into total insolvency without a bankruptcy proceeding, that poses a bigger risk to your relatives' pensions than a Chapter 11 proceeding.  The longer the death spiral (if there is, in fact, a death spiral) takes, the less likely pensions will be fully funded, and the greater the funding shortfall.  If the Big Three must die, better they die sooner rather than later--the damage to everyone and to everyone's pensions will be less today than tomorrow.

Worst case is some benefits will be trimmed for some retirees--chiefly those who retired before age 60.  That's not a pretty picture, but, even for those retirees whose benefits are trimmed, it's better in both the short and longer term than pissing away every last tax dollar America has to offer.



MstrPBK -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 8:07:40 AM)

Maybe I am missing something here ... but .. why should we consider bailing them out? This is one of the industries that forces us to be dependent on foreign oil, this is an industry that (still is) reluctant to go environmentally sound. To me this industry is 30 years behind in the "green" movement. Their crisis SHOULD be our chance to build an entirely new solution.

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN



celticlord2112 -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 8:12:39 AM)

quote:

Maybe I am missing something here ... but .. why should we consider bailing them out?

You're not missing anything.  Queen Pelosi and her entourage, with the complicity of the White House, want to bail out the auto industry.  "We the People" do not (so says a CNN poll as of December 1-2).

Tell your congressman and Senators to vote NO on any bailout of the auto industry.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 8:16:10 AM)

Pelosi, GM exec endorse 'car czar' for bailout

quote:

"I think it's very important," Pelosi told NBC's Today show, because little would be accomplished if company executives are "left to their own devices."

Even Queen Pelosi doesn't trust the Big Three to use the money wisely.  Without directly saying it, even she is admitting THE BAILOUT WON'T WORK.





Mercnbeth -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 8:18:33 AM)

quote:

If the Big Three lurch and lumber into total insolvency without a bankruptcy proceeding, that poses a bigger risk to your relatives' pensions than a Chapter 11 proceeding.  The longer the death spiral (if there is, in fact, a death spiral) takes, the less likely pensions will be fully funded, and the greater the funding shortfall.  If the Big Three must die, better they die sooner rather than later--the damage to everyone and to everyone's pensions will be less today than tomorrow

Staying with the theme...

Even if you did have sufficient DP and a creditor willing to finance would a new US made car be your first choice? What is your expectation of the warranty guarantee? How much support can you expect? How many still are sticking to 'beta' video format?

How about the vendors? Are you selling anything to US auto makers on credit? How many people are you laying off because your receivables from them are doubtful? Will you extend more credit?

Now lets consider government intervention.

Already we've accepted 'nationalization' of the industry. A 'Czar' (how's that for an ironic name for this socialist practice?) will be put in place. Instead of a Board of Directors, he/she will dictate the industry path. Not one company, but the entire industry. Can't imagine any better opportunity for 'special interests' who never have citizen best interest as a focus or goal. The religion of 'global warming' will come into play, no doubt. A nice spearhead for socialized medicine is the conversion of the UAW benefits into a federal health care program. Any vendor/lender not in agreement with policy will be excluded. The final domino will be restricted purchase options, either by direct order by the government or prohibited taxation outside the dictated 'standard'.

Yup, its a play that is so well thought out that it is impressive. I am in awe of its architects and appreciate their foresight as well as their correct assumption about the naiveté of the general public. Although I believe part of the process was the dumbing down of the population through a concerted effort through the public school education system. Propaganda started in grade school generated the populous who today expects their 'trophy' for failure from a all providing nanny government. 

It's no longer a 'conspiracy theory' when you see it play out before your very eyes. A casual review of history reveals that most dictators, from Caesar to Chavez are initially put in place by public acclamation. In a couple of years, the clamor will be nearly deafening!



shannie -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 8:23:10 AM)

For anyone who thinks this "loan" is going to help their relatives or fellow human beings in anyway -- it's not. 

First of all, if there was ANY chance of these "big three" making themselves profitable, private investors would be clamoring to invest.  There is NO chance of these corrupt, inefficient entities becoming competitive (especially when they are rewarded for being corrupt and inefficient).  So this "loan" will be defaulted upon with certainty -- and is thus, another "giveaway."

Where were the crocodile tears (from our congressman and the CEOs) about "lost jobs" when most of the manuifacturing base in the US was lost because of NAFTA?  Believe me, the crocodile tears are not over lost jobs.  In fact, these vampires will probably take this money, and use it to move the remaining jobs to Mexico.  Lol.

Those falsely-apologetic bastards need to have a CBT 2000 permanently locked on to every single one them, all of their assets seized, and told to get the hell out of here with their tin cups and crocodile tears.

I have two ideas for a "bail out" (for whatever my ideas might be worth, which is "nothing"): 

One idea is to forcefully break the "big three" into 100s of separate companies (like they did with the inefficient, monstrous, anti-competitive telephone-services monopoly in the 70s), and then tell them: "Innovate or die."  That's the fundamental tenet of capitalism. "Car czar?"  Is this Venezuela, or what???

The other idea is to look into what it would cost to bring the Japanese automobile manufacturing base into the US ($75 billion? That's peanuts in the brave new world of "bail outs") -- and hey, at least they have some possibility, and record, of being profitable.  Just an idea. :)








celticlord2112 -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 8:24:49 AM)

quote:

Even if you did have sufficient DP and a creditor willing to finance would a new US made car be your first choice?

Strictly speaking, my "first" choice would be a car 2-3 years old in good condition.

However, if I am purchasing any vehicle, I do prefer the US models (Ford Taurus and the Ford Ranger pickup).  My current vehicle is a 1994 Ford Taurus that I should nickname the "energizer bunny" because it just keeps going, and going, and going......

Which is a whole lot of words to answer your question with a "Yes!" [;)]



celticlord2112 -> RE: Congress sends White House its auto bailout draft (12/9/2008 8:26:02 AM)

quote:

Those falsely-apologetic bastards need to have a CBT 2000 permanently locked on to every single one them, all of their assets seized, and told to get the hell out of here with their tin cups and crocodile tears.

I rather like Cjan's idea of putting them in the stocks on the steps of the Capitol, myself.



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