Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/10/2008 5:16:00 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today

Proof positive that Congress is not "rising" to the occasion with this bailout nonsense comes in the last line of the article:

quote:

Also included in the bill is an unrelated pay-raise for federal judges.

Can anyone explain what in the hell judges' pay has to do with bailing out the auto industry?  Or is Congress merely making sure there are an adequate supply of bankruptcy judges for this time next year when the inevitable finally happens?


_____________________________
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/10/2008 7:24:30 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Oh good!

I am so happy that the auto bail out will mean a new car to go to every driver over 21 who is a registered voter.

One of the realtors here has a big ad, with houses,  the tiltle,  "bail out".   the pics are the usual houses but the price isnt mentioned.  Only the amount per month, with no details.  One cant tell if it includes taxes, ins or the like.   Anyhow- I better clean out my car port!!!

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/10/2008 7:40:42 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Several Congressional Republicans are vowing to fight this legislation and use a filibuster to potentially block the vote.  This back and forth fighting may well last through the end of this year and into January.  And the judge's pay raise should be axed with a line-item veto.

From CNN today -

"Vice President Dick Cheney and White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolton attended a Senate GOP policy lunch in the Capitol Wednesday to try to persuade skeptical GOP senators to support the bill.

After the meeting, two Republican senators said they believed the bill was in trouble.

"I don't think the votes are there on our side of the aisle," reported Sen. George Voinovich of Ohio, one of few vocal Republican backers of the bill. Shelby added that he, too, thought the bill would not pass.

The big question is whether supporters of the bill can convince enough Republicans to get 60 votes to overcome opposition among those GOP senators."

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/10/news/companies/auto_bailout_legislation/index.htm?cnn=yes


(format edit)

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 12/10/2008 7:41:26 PM >

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/10/2008 7:50:22 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

And the judge's pay raise should be axed with a line-item veto.

Except there is no such thing.  The Line-Item Veto briefly granted to Clinton didn't pass Constitutional muster (the Presentment Clause of the Constitution mandates a bill be passed or rejected in its entirety).


_____________________________



(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/10/2008 7:55:42 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Well then, toss it out and start over. 

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/10/2008 7:56:29 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Well then, toss it out and start over. 

How about toss it out and stop?


_____________________________



(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/10/2008 7:59:13 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Because they need to keep themselves occupied through the end of the year.  An idle mind and hands are the Devil's workshop, don't you know?

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/10/2008 8:04:30 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Because they need to keep themselves occupied through the end of the year.  An idle mind and hands are the Devil's workshop, don't you know?

Pah.  A motion to adjourn is always in order. Especially when Congress is involved.

Send them home for a nice LONG holiday.


_____________________________



(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/10/2008 8:21:11 PM   
masterBruce


Posts: 133
Joined: 3/30/2004
Status: offline 		send the auto makers to bankruptcy

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/10/2008 11:09:47 PM   
Lorr47


Posts: 862
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today

Proof positive that Congress is not "rising" to the occasion with this bailout nonsense comes in the last line of the article:

quote:

Also included in the bill is an unrelated pay-raise for federal judges.

Can anyone explain what in the hell judges' pay has to do with bailing out the auto industry?  Or is Congress merely making sure there are an adequate supply of bankruptcy judges for this time next year when the inevitable finally happens?



Is GM's management dumb, or do they have a hidden agenda:

1.  According to an article, GM now exists in the form of  several corporations, several domestic and several foreign.  If a US  GM corporation goes bankrupt, it is doubtful the Court can reach the non US assets or the non US corporations because of the business structure. 

2.  Although GM's sales  in US dropped by over 20% recently, GM's sales overseas increased  by over 20%. (Whatever GM now means.)

3.  Author feels that GM is about to enter another golden era but this time in China and India (Buick is the luxury auto of China).  With manufacturing plants located abroad.

Do they really want a bailout or to merely sell US operation to the government and leave?  If you are a contrarian, it might be a good buy for defense purposes at this price. (I still hold the belief that the economy cannot take the hit of letting the three fall in 2009 and 2010; we would go from recession to depression.)




(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/11/2008 6:11:22 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

1. According to an article, GM now exists in the form of several corporations, several domestic and several foreign. If a US GM corporation goes bankrupt, it is doubtful the Court can reach the non US assets or the non US corporations because of the business structure.

Depends on how the bankruptcy is filed, and what level of ownership the filing entity has over the other corporate entities.

I don't think there's much of a hidden agenda, because no matter how the debts are distributed, the purpose of a bankruptcy would be to reorganize and reduce (or even eliminate) those debts, as well as other obligations, and bankruptcy law (and bankruptcy judges) tend to frown on shuffling debts and assets between corporate structures to shield assets from the bankruptcy process while skipping out on the debt.  Sham transactions in bankruptcy proceedings rise very quickly to the level of "fraud".

That being said, I would like to see that article, especially if it documents the GM corporate structure in detail.


_____________________________



(in reply to Lorr47)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/11/2008 6:15:35 AM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


That being said, I would like to see that article, especially if it documents the GM corporate structure in detail.



That's an easy one.  The structure is like this. 

We are above you,
Give us what we want
When we want
Then we will piss all over you
You'll be happy we did

What ever happened to the "FREE MARKET"

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/11/2008 6:45:14 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

And the judge's pay raise should be axed with a line-item veto.

Except there is no such thing.  The Line-Item Veto briefly granted to Clinton didn't pass Constitutional muster (the Presentment Clause of the Constitution mandates a bill be passed or rejected in its entirety).



yes and no.   there has been a huge use of signing statements.   ..executive orders,   stack it any way you like- the government has more power then it should.

they need approval for some bail outs, but not for others,  the middleman have it such a shell game that even the experts dont know who owns what.   there is not enough wealth on the planet to cover the hedge fund debts.  fractional banking to the max.

so if we are very broke or very very broke... at this point, it doesnt matter, it is a side show.

from here we go 1 of 2 ways.

we return the the consitution, and control our money

or we give that power to the middleman globalists to control every transaction.  

I wont hod my breath.   When it all collapses we will beg for the new Amero.... (which of course will come with strings)

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/11/2008 7:05:11 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081211/ap_on_go_co/congress_autos


The guys who scuttled the ship, are now threatening to scuttle the life-boat.


Time to throw a few trouble makers overboard.


If Detroit falls,the GOP can kiss it`s good-for-nut`n ass good-bye,at least until the latter part of the century.Maybe forever.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/11/2008 7:15:34 AM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		What I don't get is Down south when Toyota need money the GOP had no problem lending them cash.  But for American companies they have a hard time. 

Hell we bailed out WS, why not the Auto Industry, hmmm,,,hey how about bailing out my student loan, that would only run around $60 grand

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/11/2008 7:45:30 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081211/ap_on_go_co/congress_autos

The guys who scuttled the ship, are now threatening to scuttle the life-boat.

Time to throw a few trouble makers overboard.

If Detroit falls,the GOP can kiss it`s good-for-nut`n ass good-bye,at least until the latter part of the century.Maybe forever.


Yes, I agree '59. They can forget about any of the Union votes, which won't be by secret ballot soon, or Union PAC contributions. I doubt any bureaucrats (aka government workers), or the inter-city vote will come their way. Do you think they'll miss those sources giving them the 10 votes they did in November. 

The constituency of entitlement seekers will be pissed forever, not just into the next century. However, obviously there is a large plurality of entitlement and welfare seekers. Including a large influx from failed companies such as the Financial and Auto industry.

It must be the Holiday Spirit driving people to give failed companies money. Support coming from the same people who vilified these companies when they were successful. Obviously it's not big business that is so offensive, it's big successful businesses. Fail and the Democrats, liberals, and academic socialists; act like Santa Claus.

$15Billion without a plan needed until March! AMAZING!

Same thing happens in my business. Just yesterday, I was at a meeting that went like this...

Merc: "Hi, I'm Merc, I need about $500,000 for my company. I'm going to close if I don't get it because I've been a terrible manager."
Financier: "What are your plans?"
Merc: "Plans? - I need a plan? You don't understand, if I don't get the money I'm going to close and 16 people will be laid off and not have the company paid insurance I provide."
Financier: "Well in that case, we'll give you $250,000! Do me a favor and once you figure out how you are going to turn the company around, come back okay? You'll have to report to Mr. Nick A. Romanov."
Merc: "Well, that's a tough qualification, but okay." I'll start working on it, as soon as I get back from an international conference of failing companies, being held in Tuscany. The first thing I'm going to do with the money is attend that 2 week conference."
Financier: "Wow - that's a good start for your plan. Good luck!"

...And then I woke up.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/11/2008 7:58:52 AM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		I wish it were so simple Merc, the failing of Detroit would be somewhat catastrophic even for those who believe as you do that there should be a plan. I am not so sure what to believe is the right course of action but, allowing for more unemployment and the failure of that large a group of companies is a scary thought. Having read the proposed legislation this morning I do believe that for the most part the money is recoverable which makes it a bit more tolerable for me. I also know that the present situation of GM, more so than Chrysler, is precarious to the point of doing nothing means total failure of one of the largest manufacturing bases within the USA. I am not so sure how the economy suffers through such a thing as a GM bankruptcy? The repercussions may scare me more than the proposal. I worry a bit less about Chrysler due to the other holdings of their parent company, and Ford has basically withdrew any requests for loans from the government. I am certain one of them has to go and perhaps it is Chrysler's time and economically it would be preferable to the demise of GM only due to the scale of GM's vast effects economically.
Still awaiting the bailout of furniture retailers!
Mark

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/11/2008 8:13:52 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I am not so sure how the economy suffers through such a thing as a GM bankruptcy? The repercussions may scare me more than the proposal.


Mark,
That's exactly how they've managed to con and scare everyone into this. You are eliminating a BAD company, NOT the market that company serves.

I know people with so much money they are liberals! They know that the bankruptcy of GM will do more to solve the industry long term than this band-aid with no plan. Break it up, sell off the assets and cut the fat, not just at the bottom but at the top.

Grant the same amount of money to an entrepreneurial group to re-invent the auto industry and I'm the first in line to support it. Let them buy out the existing plants and use the money to upgrade. Put in an employee partnership that does not include the adversarial UAW bureaucracy.

Letting them go bankrupt will provide an example for other companies going forward. There are not too many multi-million dollar CEO jobs and executive jobs that make the idea of unemployment for these people desirable.

It IS that simple. It's the rhetoric that puts up a facade of complication.

(in reply to SilverMark)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/11/2008 8:32:53 AM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		Merc,
What of the economists that hold the position that GM's survival is so closely related to our survival as an economy?
It seems the argument is circular with no conclusion, I have heard so many on both sides, I guess after 700 billion the 14 billion seems like chicken feed( hate to be that jaded)....I guess that is what divides the public on the issue so much. Being born and raised in the Mid-West, I see the survival of GM as part of where I grew up and I am old enough to remember the FIRST Chrysler bailout and it seeming to work but,I was always a big fan of fine Corinthian Leather! I also want Chrysler to stick around long enough to get a Challenger, although I wish they had just called it a Barracuda!<---selfish bastard that I am!
Still awaiting the bailout for furniture retailers!
Mark


< Message edited by SilverMark -- 12/11/2008 8:33:38 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today - 12/11/2008 8:49:02 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

I am not so sure how the economy suffers through such a thing as a GM bankruptcy? The repercussions may scare me more than the proposal.

I am not so sure the economy suffers at all if GM goes into Chapter 11. In fact, Chapter 11 is what's needed--and what the UAW is scared to allow. Chapter 11 would allow the automakers to restructure their labor agreements. There is no escaping the reality that the labor costs are a major part of what makes the Big Three non-competitive.

I would be in favor of a bailout regime so long as a few preconditions were met:

1. The bailout is structured as a "pre-packaged" Chapter 11.
2. The boards of directors and executive officers of the automakers are fired with no severance package of any kind, and surrender any and all options and stock in their respective companies.
3. The UAW is decertified, and all UAW labor agreements shredded. If the workers want to re-unionize, no UAW personnel can be involved--it has to be a completely new union structure.

THAT would salvage the automakers and the jobs.

_____________________________



(in reply to SilverMark)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Auto bailout deal done; first vote could come today Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.090