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Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 6:25:58 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		WASHINGTON (AP) — The auto industry's cash-flow crisis has landed back at the White House doorstep and no "Welcome" mat is yet in sight."For God sakes, I hope the president acts," Mayor Virg Bernero of Lansing, Mich., exclaimed Friday morning.General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC, which have said they could run out of cash within weeks, have few options left after the dramatic defeat in the Senate of a $14 billion bailout for the domestic auto industry.Its demise late Thursday prompted immediate calls from lawmakers in both parties for the Bush administration to tap into the $700 billion Wall Street bailout to rescue the beleaguered auto industry. The bill failed after talks broke down over the refusal of the United Auto Workers union to meet Republican demands for aggressive wage reductions.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hTlR_ry_mjT2nXKPWyYI4asuW1jQD9516OS00

I dont understand the ins and outs, politically or economically, but what happens now?
Was there any requirement for management(middle and upper) to reduce wages?
How much was being touted for the workers to lose?
Lucy



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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 6:53:49 AM   
bluepanda


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Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline 		I understand  the workers would have had to give up an average of 3 to 4 bucks an hour, but I may be wrong about that. I didn't see that explicitly spelled out in the articles I read, I only inferred it.

What happens next? It's already started happening. A half hour before the markets opened, the President sent word that he was strongly considering using TARP funds to bridge the gap until a deal could be worked out. Just minutes before the opening bell, the Treasury Department announced that they will do what they need to do to keep the industry alive; I don't know the details clearly enough yet to explain it, because I'm too busy scanning stock prices at the moment. The Dow was down sharply at the open, but is trying to rebound in response to the reassurances. Looks like a positive development, but I think it's going to be a very tense day for the market.


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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 7:15:13 AM   
thishereboi


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Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline 		They could always pull out of the Auto Show that is coming up. That at least would show that they are concerned about their spending. Until I saw that they were going to do things differently, I would not give them a dime.

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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 7:16:12 AM   
DarkSteven


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Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		TARP funds?  Is it considered fraudulent misuse of federal funds if the President uses them inappropriately?

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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 7:39:49 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		That's the trouble with giving the Prez a blank check--again.

The Treasury Secretary can do anything he wants with that cash--no oversight.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 12/12/2008 7:41:06 AM >

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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 7:51:37 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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~ FAST REPLY ~
 
The UAW wanted to bail out the auto makers in 2011 not 2009. Now they can negotiate directly for their member's jobs with the foreign companies who will be coming in to pick over the dinosaur bones.

quote:

...refused to back federal aid for Detroit's beleaguered Big Three without a guarantee that the United Auto Workers would agree by the end of next year to wage cuts to bring their pay into line with Japanese carmakers. The UAW refused to do so before its current contract with the automakers expires in 2011.
Source: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081212/D95106M80.html 


Wonder if the UAW executives will start an investigation to determine who killed the industry in the same spirit as when OJ was on the golf course hunting for Nicole's killer.

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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 7:52:05 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda

I understand  the workers would have had to give up an average of 3 to 4 bucks an hour, but I may be wrong about that. I didn't see that explicitly spelled out in the articles I read, I only inferred it.





http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/congress_autos

Congressional Republicans have been in open revolt against Bush over the auto bailout. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky joined other GOP lawmakers Thursday in announcing his opposition to the White House-backed bill, which passed the House on Wednesday. He and other Republicans insisted that the carmakers restructure their debt and bring wages and benefits in line with those paid by Toyota, Honda and Nissan in the United States.

Hourly wages for UAW workers at GM factories are about equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69, including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 12/12/2008 7:53:57 AM >

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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 8:01:40 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I am afraid I have some dreadful news.

The government is a psychopath.

There. I said it.

We usually incarcerate people who take what is not theirs to take.

There was a time where a man did a fair days work for a fair wage.

Today we have smoke and mirrors on steroids. 


The question then becomes, how can I, the lone individual, eek out any type of happiness in a world ponzi scheme?

When you figure that out, please let me know.  I honestly dont know the answere to that.



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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 8:09:17 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy 


The question then becomes, how can I, the lone individual, eek out any type of happiness in a world ponzi scheme?

When you figure that out, please let me know.  I honestly dont know the answere to that.



Since you're so fond of calling everything a ponzi scheme I thought you would like this:

Bernard Madoff arrested over alleged $50 billion fraud - Yahoo! News
News, Headlines and Latest Stories on Yahoo! News. ... Madoff has been
conducting a Ponzi scheme since at least 2005, the U.S. said. ...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081212/bs_nm/us_madoff_arrest  

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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 8:12:01 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

The question then becomes, how can I, the lone individual, eek out any type of happiness in a world ponzi scheme?


Easy - Work for yourself. It is the only way to really be paid what you are worth. Of course, for some, that may not be enough to live on.

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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 8:16:15 AM   
bluepanda


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Joined: 12/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy


The question then becomes, how can I, the lone individual, eek out any type of happiness in a world ponzi scheme?

When you figure that out, please let me know.  I honestly dont know the answere to that.





Find ways of being happy that aren't affected by the fact that the world economy is a catastrophe. I don't know about you, but I've still got a wonderful place to live, with a gorgeous wooded ravine 20 feet from the edge of my patio, and a creek with waterfalls and rapids and deer and foxes at the bottom of the ravine; a house full of books, DVDs, and CDs that I love; a host of good friends who love me and with whom I love spending time; and numerous hobbies, interests, and recreational activities to keep me busy every day of my life. I may not be rich by commonly accepted standards, but according to this website, I'm wealthier than over 99% of the world's population. No matter what happens in the economy, and no matter how much money I still may lose in the stock market over the next year or so, I've got one hell of a lot to be very, very happy  about. And I think most Americans do, whether they choose to look at it that way or not.

< Message edited by bluepanda -- 12/12/2008 8:17:23 AM >

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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 9:29:45 AM   
awmslave


Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		I read the headline "Bailout failure shows leadership vacuum" and I was thinking it is just an opposite: leadership was shown to defeat bad policy. Big Three can not be saved in current shape by giving them relatively small amount of public money. They need to get rid of bad management, reduce bad debt and re-negotiate labor contracts. Giving them some money would just prolong the agony. After a few months when money has been spent and executives have collected their fat Christmas bonuses they will be back in Washington asking for more.

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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 11:21:21 AM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline 		It will be interesting to see what will happen here as the Detroit 3 are asking for a 6.8 Billion dollar bailout on this side of the border

almost 50% of what they are asking from the US government  yet 85% of the vehicles  made here will go to the US to be sold with 1/10 of the number of taxpayers  that the US has ...so proportionally they are demanding far more from Canada in the way of bailouts

http://www.westislandchronicle.com/article-cp65596031-Automakers-requests-capable-of-being-dealt-with-need-more-talks-Flaherty.html


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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 11:51:43 AM   
UncleNasty


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Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline 		My understanding, admittedly limited, is that there is no way for the Pres or Pres Elect to access TARP funds, or distribute them.

Uncle Nasty, happily back to 1 1/2 hands

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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 12:45:29 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Easy - Work for yourself. It is the only way to really be paid what you are worth. Of course, for some, that may not be enough to live on.


Merc ... I'm speechless with delight!

I've worked for myself for about 20 years, and I couldn't agree more with most of your comments.

I think this one belongs in the "classic sayings of all time".

Hell, I might even make it my new sig line, if you don't mind!

Firm

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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 12:50:23 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty
My understanding, admittedly limited, is that there is no way for the Pres or Pres Elect to access TARP funds, or distribute them.

From what we've seen thus far, it seems that Paulson can spread the wealth from TARP however he pleases, with zero accountability or even visibility.

All it would take, then, is an Executive Order directing him to shovel a few billions Detroit way.


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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 1:08:16 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		The Fed may have $15 Billion in loose 'change' from the $2 Trillion they gave out to unidentified parties involved with the last bail out.


quote:

Dec. 12 (Bloomberg) -- The Federal Reserve refused a request by Bloomberg News to disclose the recipients of more than $2 trillion of emergency loans from U.S. taxpayers and the assets the central bank is accepting as collateral.

Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=apx7XNLnZZlc&refer=home

This line from the article just amazed me; " Representative David Scot, a Georgia Democrat, said Americans had “been bamboozled.” So saith one of those who authorized the 'bamboozle' in the first place. Congress is lucky to be the beneficiary of a failed education system where the majority of citizens can't comprehend the  absolute ridiculousness of that comment.

CONGRATS to all the 'good' 'responsible' voters seeking 'change', some even tax payers, who in November re-elected their local Congressman and Senators who were responsible for this in the first place.

Edited to add: (Maybe this should be it's own topic.)

Sorry - Had to add this comment from the producer, director, and star of that great film supporting GM - 'Roger and me'; Michael Moore!

quote:

They could have given the loan on the condition that the management team which drove these once-great manufacturers into the ground resign and be replaced with a team who understands the transportation needs of the 21st century.
http://michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php
Yeah Michael - Bring back Roger right?

I guess good old Michael should be the poster child for those who vilified big business in general and GM in particular until now.

This is cute too:
quote:

But instead, the Senate said, we'll give you the loan only if the factory workers take a $20 an hour cut in wages, pension and health care.
Now wait a second Roger, isn't that a good thing based upon how poor US Health care was and your last 'documentary'? Why not take all your money and relocate workers to Cuba with you, if you can get any to do so. Wasn't it your last film that said how much better it was to live under their heath care and pension program? Hell, there I think the average pay is $20/month.

We are drowning in hypocrisy.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 12/12/2008 1:22:00 PM >

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RE: Bailout dead - 12/12/2008 1:34:58 PM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
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quote:

I dont understand the ins and outs, politically or economically, but what happens now?
Was there any requirement for management(middle and upper) to reduce wages?
How much was being touted for the workers to lose?
Lucy


in Ontario the workers gave up $700M in wages and benefits in their 3 year  contract to help the automakers out

GM said they would reduce management by 20%.. this was after massive layoffs of workers throughout Ontario....we lost a 1/3 rd  of our workforce in the plant in the first 5 months of last year and the remaining are on rotating layoff  2 weeks  on and 2 week off ..so that we are running a 1 shift operation and sharing the pain of lost wages from layoffs ...there was  0 management cuts to date..they still have enough managers currently getting paid  to cover a 3 shift operation though we are only running one.  they did not get salary cuts..the big difference now is we have all these extra managers creating all sorts of stupid hardline BS policies that is causing many workers to get fired over total nonsense  inorder to prove they deserve  their wages and to get their bonuses..at the current time the salary staff pretty much outnumbers the workers now on any given work day .. and if all the workers  are on layoff all the managers will still report to work ..yet they continued to get paid even though they have no one to manage...it is only the bottom tier that is forced to take the cuts and suffers the losses  while the upper tier continues living as is with their thumbs up their asses telling us workers we need to tighten our belts more to save our jobs... my son works for Toyota...he get paid more than I do and has just as good benefits if not better plus they have far better incentives than we do... yet Toyota is still making a profit  ..GM keeps screaming about pensions...my pension is part of my wages that was supposed to be put into a retirement fund  for me starting  the very first week I started working in the plant and every week there after...it is not money coming directly out of  their operating expenses like they make it sound like .... that pension is in fact my unpaid wages that was banked for meand is vested ..which I will likely never recieve  because the odds are I won't live that long to claim it ...  5 other workers  passed away this year who put in for  19  to 21 years....they won't be claiming their pension either..others may only live one or 2 years beyond their pensions dates and will never use up what they all paid in....so where is all this fucking pension income  going????? Has GM borrowed against it???? Why are they having trouble paying something  that should already held in trust for us?? I think the Big 3 need to have some serious auditing done to see what is going on in their books.. because upto a couple of years ago they where making billions in profits yearly  yet by standardizing and sharing of platform vehicle with other companies they were able to reduce engineering costs signficantly..So where did all those billions of profits go???  I know they have bought up robotic plants and part plants  ..which supply other automakers as well...are they funneling money into these companies instead inorder to appear to be running at a loss inorder to exhort money from various countries they operate in by threats of closures and mass unemployment... GM is a fantastic numbers player..when they used to report losses ..it was on "expected" earnings  ..for example say in 2006 they would forecast sales to be 20% more in 2007 which is a little unrealistic considering the competition but this is something we would see in the plant each year for forecasted sales numbers even when there was no major model change to warrant that high of extra sales   .. so in 2007   they sold 5% less than in 2006  so they would claim they  had a 25%  sales loss  when in reality it was only 5% from the year before... so losses were reported on  unrealistic forecasted amounts rather than actual losses.    yet they were  still making enormous profits  that year..have they suffered losses??? yes but no where as bad as they have made to public believe

they have ask the US for $14B, Canada for $6.8B....how many other countries do they operate in in Worldwide that they are also demanding money from?
UK offered 90M pounds to help out GM

the big 3 are asking the  EU and germany  for 50B euros  to bail them out
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/bailout-watch-165-germany-to-gm-%E2%80%9Cup-yours%E2%80%9D/

http://www.manufacturing.net/News-France-EU-Must-Ease-Up-On-Bailout-Rules.aspx

Australia gave 6.2Billion in an aid package
http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/20081110/australia-car-industry-gets-bln-aid-package.htm

I am not even going to look up the other countries  as there are plants in Asia, south America, Africa  but it gives you and idea of just how much money the auto giants are sucking out of other countries .. I am actually surprised looking at the international figures  that they are asking for so little from the US in comparisons to the demands they are asking from other countries ... might actually be good if several of the countries called them on their threats to pull  production out of the country..because they sure could not take all those plants back to the US  or they would be needing a hell of a lot  more money and would lose their international markets





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