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Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/12/2008 10:13:17 PM

Owner59

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Hoping to balance out the pro-torture apologist`s thread.

http://www.military.com/news/article/exinterrogator-torture-doesnt--work.html

It`s truely heartbreaking and disgusting,that we`re even discussing torturing people,let alone doing it.

And in reality,it`s counter productive and just doesn`t work.

I think this is one more reason(of many many)that the world breathed a sigh of releaf with Obama`s election.

For America,it the start of rebuilding our good name and regaining the moral high ground we`ve lost over the last 8 years.

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RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/12/2008 10:27:32 PM

popeye1250

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Yeah, now al qeada can breath a sigh of relief.
Don't you mean the last *16* years?
"Rebuilding our good name?"
Since when exactly has having a "good name" ever benefitted our country?
Have other countries repaid us the money we "loaned" them or ever offered to repatriate their illegal aliens who are in our country?
Bush had to *pay* many countries to have a "coalition of the willing" after 9/11!
Owner, I have my "big boy" pants on. Foreign countries only "like" us if they're ***getting something*** out of us!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 12/12/2008 11:01:34 PM >

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RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 8:44:14 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Foreign countries only "like" us if they're ***getting something*** out of us!

Even when we're getting something out of you, we still don't like you.

Only joking, Popeye, you know you'll always be the apple of our eye.

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RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 9:12:39 AM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Happy to burst your little bubble...

Torture worked in this case.

Or at least, physically abusing the prisoner while threatening torture did.

Why that wouldn't be considered torture I don't know... but while fucking the guy up and threatening him with even more violence they did get the information they needed to find the kidnapping victim.

And the European courts apparently have no qualms about doing that to such a prisoner, because they didn't even give the police who were involved the tiniest little slap on the wrist!

And so now we all clearly see how President Bush and the United States military have been holding the moral middle ground this entire time - just like everybody else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Hoping to balance out the pro-torture apologist`s thread.

http://www.military.com/news/article/exinterrogator-torture-doesnt--work.html

It`s truely heartbreaking and disgusting,that we`re even discussing torturing people,let alone doing it.

And in reality,it`s counter productive and just doesn`t work.

I think this is one more reason(of many many)that the world breathed a sigh of releaf with Obama`s election.

For America,it the start of rebuilding our good name and regaining the moral high ground we`ve lost over the last 8 years.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 12/13/2008 9:58:40 AM >

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RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 10:49:36 AM

Musicmystery

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Interesting that our own (U.S.) military commanders oppose torture as ineffective. John McCain opposes it too. Research supports the ineffectiveness--convenient, yes, because you can hear whatever you wish to hear...except the actual truth.

Yet the pretense that this is somehow necessary escapes people.

I have great respect for U.S. military leadership--and that's because they are smart, balanced, insightful people who don't go flying off into any given political direction (at least, not as a rule).

It's far past time civilians and politicians listen to them. We'd be SO much further ahead, with far less pain and cost.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 5

RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 11:15:32 AM

hizgeorgiapeach

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(Does it seem a bit ironic to anyone else, to see a bunch of sadists talking about how bad torture is?....... )

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RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 11:26:37 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Hoping to balance out the pro-torture apologist`s thread.

This is insulting for no good purpose. You'll find no post of mine where I categorically defend either torture or harsh interrogation methods. I'm one of the few who actually am interested discussing the issue without black/white thinking so often presented.

You are rabble-rousing (or attempting to do so, anyway).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

It`s truely heartbreaking and disgusting,that we`re even discussing torturing people,let alone doing it.

And in reality,it`s counter productive and just doesn`t work.

The desire and belief that discussion of issues isn't appropriate is often the hallmarks of a closed mind. Or at least a true-believer, who bases their thinking on absolutes.

I sometimes have difficulty with such people.

But I'm glad you are so certain of your position.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I think this is one more reason(of many many)that the world breathed a sigh of releaf with Obama`s election.

For America,it the start of rebuilding our good name and regaining the moral high ground we`ve lost over the last 8 years.

As you are probably already starting to see, I'm not so sure that this is true. Reality sometimes has a way of intruding on idealist beliefs.

Firm

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RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 11:34:21 AM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Who is "pro-torture..."?

Anyone?

Do you think President Bush is "pro-torture"?

Or that the German police in question are "pro-torture"?

No, nobody is, really. Saddam Hussein was, maybe - and perhaps a few others like him are. But other than that, no one here is.

You and Owner59 seem to have very little understanding of what's being discussed in that other thread... which amounts to the double standard that exists between Europe and the United States, and especially the double standard as it exists in the American media.

Personally, I believe that the German police who coerced information from the suspect in question did the only responsible thing that they could do. While I am firmly against torture I am enough of an adult to realize that sometimes one must make very difficult choices, and when the only choices you have are between two evils, unfortunately one must choose the lesser of the two.

I really hope this cleared things up for you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Interesting that our own (U.S.) military commanders oppose torture as ineffective. John McCain opposes it too. Research supports the ineffectiveness--convenient, yes, because you can hear whatever you wish to hear...except the actual truth.

Yet the pretense that this is somehow necessary escapes people.

I have great respect for U.S. military leadership--and that's because they are smart, balanced, insightful people who don't go flying off into any given political direction (at least, not as a rule).

It's far past time civilians and politicians listen to them. We'd be SO much further ahead, with far less pain and cost.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 12/13/2008 11:44:54 AM >

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RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 11:40:43 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach
(Does it seem a bit ironic to anyone else, to see a bunch of sadists talking about how bad torture is?....... )

No, because there's the small matter of consent that's present in an agreement between individuals, and absent in state-sponsored torture.

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RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 11:48:36 AM

Sanity

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The act of kidnapping someone, or plotting mass murders of innocent civilians could be considered to be a form of consent, couldn't it?

I mean, what do people who do that sort of thing expect to happen to them given the right circumstances.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach
(Does it seem a bit ironic to anyone else, to see a bunch of sadists talking about how bad torture is?....... )

No, because there's the small matter of consent that's present in an agreement between individuals, and absent in state-sponsored torture.

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RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 11:49:55 AM

Owner59

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It also does great damage to those tasked with the job of doing the torturing.

Years ago,I heard an NPR story about the mental/emotional problems that were affecting tortures from south America.

These men were now being tortured by their memories and past acts.

They actually had a program where victims met their torturers,giving them both a way to vent/express their feelings and move forward.

There`s no doubt that all in all,torture doesn`t work or provide good info.

It can very well provide faults info,like in the run up to the Iraq debacle.There was intel quoted and used by the admin. to bolster the claim of WMDs in Iraq,where in reality,our torture victim basically agreed with anything we wanted him to.

The neo-con somehow thinks that info gained through torture is iron clad ,accurate and pertinent,just for the fact that torture was used.The guy just want`s it to stop and will say anything.

In fact,I can get any neo-conservative/republican/pro-torturer to change their minds about any topic,given a little "private time" together.With torture,I can make them complement Obama,join the ACLU,turn logic/reason on it`s head and renounce Christ,..........with sincerity.

It doesn`t matter that people who`ve been there and done that say torture is counterproductive,for the radical wing of the republican party.

They`re intent on finding a one in a hundred billion chance example,.... and then use that to justify all their maleficence and immorality.

It doesn`t matter that the US is now regarded like the soviets or Chinese communists,an amoral brute with more money than brains and with no shame.

We may never live down the abuse,torture and killing of those people at Abu Ghraib prison(one of Saddam Hussein`s main places of torture and known for it).

Bush has led us on a race to the bottom,morally,ethically and spiritually.Mission accomplished.

It`s time to repair the damage, restore our good name and retake the moral high ground and not just pretend to be the good guys.Swimming with the rats in the sewer hasn`t worked out well.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 12/13/2008 12:17:53 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Post #: 11

RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 11:50:21 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Who is "pro-torture..."?

Anyone?

Do you think President Bush is pro-torture?

Or that the German police in question are "pro-torture"?

No, nobody is, really. Saddam Hussein was, maybe - and perhaps a few others like him are. But other than that, no one here is.

True believers need an idealized "villain" class on which to focus their hatred and emotions. It gives them a feeling of righteousness and completion.

Reasoning with them is generally difficult, if not impossible.

Firm

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RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 11:55:27 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The act of kidnapping someone, or plotting mass murders of innocent civilians could be considered to be a form of consent, couldn't it?

Are you describing the military strategists of this world?

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RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 12:04:20 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

There`s no doubt that all in all,torture doesn`t work or provide good info.

Interesting position.

In reference to the German police incident, I have two questions for you:

1. Were the activities for which the police were found guilty, acts of torture?
2. Was the information they received from these activities accurate?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

It can very well provide faults info,like in the run up to the Iraq debacle.There was intel quoted and used by the admin. to bolster the claim of WMDs in Iraq,where in reality,our torture victim basically agreed with anything we wanted him to.

So ... you are claiming that there were US sanctioned acts of torture which we then used to support the belief that WMDs existed in Iraq?

You have any evidence of this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The neo-con somehow thinks that info gained through torture is iron clad ,accurate and pertinent.The guy just want`s it to stop and will say anything.

In fact,I can get any neo-conservative/republican/pro-torturer to change their minds about any topic,given a little "private time" together.With torture,I can make them complement Obama,join the ACLU,turn logic/reason on it`s and renounce Christ,..........with sincerity.

It doesn`t matter that people who`ve been there and done that say torture is counterproductive,for the radical wing of the republican party.

They`re intent on finding a one in a hundred billion chance example,.... and then use that to justify all there maleficence and immorality.

Great examples of a ideological true believer defining his villain class.

Dehumanizing is the first step in making the morality of torture and murder acceptable. In my mind, it is beliefs and words such as the ones quoted above which are more dangerous to liberal morality and the rule of law than the relatively minor acts of "enhanced interrogation methods" that the US is accused of.

Firm

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RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 12:04:52 PM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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I doubt there has ever a time or a place in the history of the world where a military leader has been safe from harsh interrogation techniques, once he found himself in the hands of his enemies.

Why should al-Qaeda officers be any different... just so that we can hold some imaginary "moral high ground" that even our allies in Europe scoff at in a similar pinch?

Just to be clear, we're talking about people believed to have information that can be used to save the lives of innocent civilians.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The act of kidnapping someone, or plotting mass murders of innocent civilians could be considered to be a form of consent, couldn't it?

Are you describing the military strategists of this world?

< Message edited by Sanity -- 12/13/2008 12:18:00 PM >

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Post #: 15

RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 12:24:24 PM

Owner59

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From: Dirty Jersey
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When did calling a spade a spade and speaking truth to power become dangerous to morality?

The same day that torture was renamed "enhanced interrogation"?

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 16

RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 1:53:12 PM

Hippiekinkster

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~FR~
" Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other senior U.S. officials share much of the blame for detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, according to portions of a report released on Thursday by the Senate Armed Services Committee.
The report's executive summary, made public by the committee's Democratic chairman Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan and its top Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona, said Rumsfeld contributed to the abuse by authorizing aggressive interrogation techniques at Guantanamo Bay on December 2, 2002.
The report concluded that Rumsfeld's actions were "a direct cause of detainee abuse" at Guantanamo and "influenced and contributed to the use of abusive techniques ... in Afghanistan and Iraq."
"The abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib in late 2003 was not simply the result of a few soldiers acting on their own," the executive summary said.
"Interrogation techniques such as stripping detainees of their clothes, placing them in stress positions and using military working dogs to intimidate them appeared in Iraq only after they had been approved for use in Afghanistan and at (Guantanamo)."
"These policies are wrong and must never be repeated," McCain, who last month ended an unsuccessful bid for the White House, said in a statement released with the executive summary.
McCain said the report revealed an "inexcusable link between abusive interrogation techniques used by our enemies who ignored the Geneva Conventions and interrogation policy for detainees in U.S. custody."
The full report, billed as the most thorough examination of U.S. military detainee policy by Congress, remains classified.
Committee staff said the full report was approved on November 20 in a unanimous voice vote by 17 of the panel's 25 members. The panel consists of 13 Democrats and 12 Republicans.
The executive summary also traces the erosion of detainee treatment standards to a Feb,. 7, 2002, memorandum signed by President George W. Bush stating that the Geneva Convention did not apply to the U.S. war with al Qaeda and that Taliban detainees were not entitled to prisoner of war status or legal protections.
"The president's order closed off application of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, which would have afforded minimum standards for humane treatment," the summary said.
Members of Bush's Cabinet and other senior officials participated in meetings inside the White House in 2002 and 2003 where specific interrogation techniques were discussed, according to the report. The committee also blamed former Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Richard Myers for undermining the military's review of interrogation methods."
Senate report ties Rumsfeld to Abu Ghraib abuse

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 12/13/2008 1:58:50 PM >

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RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 2:12:44 PM

Owner59

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From: Dirty Jersey
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But who took the fall for Abu Ghraib?

A bunch of innocent hay seeds who were following their orders.

Not Rumsfeld.

Another up-shoot of an Obama election?

There`s a chance now that some justice will be done on the neo-cons.At the very least,we`ll find out what actually happened.

The professional liars and their payed off reporters still in charge surely can`t be believed.

I see a lot of sworn testimony in the neo-conservative`s future.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 12/13/2008 2:13:51 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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Post #: 18

RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 2:17:44 PM

E2Sweet

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...on second though. never mind...

< Message edited by E2Sweet -- 12/13/2008 2:20:27 PM >

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RE: Torture... Never A Good Idea - 12/13/2008 2:43:46 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

When did calling a spade a spade and speaking truth to power become dangerous to morality?

The same day that torture was renamed "enhanced interrogation"?

I've asked you two simple questions above.

Are you going to respond, or ignore?

And you still haven't told me what crime Karl Rove was convicted of.

Firm

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Some people are just idiots.

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Post #: 20

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