RE: I am so disgusted... (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/13/2008 2:38:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae

Nothing wrong with the labor movement but there is everything wrong with the unions.


Aren't the unions the same as the labor movement?

quote:


Be it 14/hr or 28/hr, add in all the benefits and then of course there is the pension afterwards which of course helps them maintain their standard of living @ 70000/yr. But hey, that's okay, pro-union would say they earned it. But think about the other side of the coin, if the individual makes 50000/yr, for every 40000/yr another individual is employed.

So, then the proper thing to do is to decrease wages in comparable jobs to the lowest level instead of trying to increase the wages of lower paid workers?

I'm sure whoever you work for wishes all his workers had that same attitude.  It will help him make the mortgage payment on his seventh house.  Or is it eighth?  Hell, who's counting, it's all good.
quote:



Unions were needed in the past to protect labor from unfair practices. Girl knows exactly how they must have felt, laboring for master, master put me in some situations that would have been deemed unsafe. Girl can relate.
However, now is not the time to bail out the fat cats with their private jets flying all the way to senate for a bailout. They are not thinking about labor, the fat cats are only thinking about their own pay checks.
And yes, girl does not much care for unions either.

I do hope you see the contradiction in claiming unions are no longer necessary while complaining of the reasons they are.

And while it is none of my business, I also hope you rethink "laboring for master" if he has put you "in some situations that would have been deemed unsafe".

quote:


If the big three want a bail out, girl is damn sure if they went to labor and had labor invest in their own future. They might be able to get what they need to bail themselves out. It worked for a great many companies back in 80s. When instead of the company closing its doors for good, the company offered their employees to buy into the company and become vested owners.
If they also did this, they might get the senate to agree to give them the balance needed to keep going.
Then again it may be a conflict of interest if the UAW members bought into the company that they helped to price themselves right out of the market.


Which companies were those?

The only one I am aware of was United Airlines which tried an employee-ownership program and still went bankrupt.

Not that I am against the idea, but when you have a long-standing animosity between management and workers, as United did and the automakers do, it is not likely to change overnight.





DarkSteven -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/13/2008 2:43:38 PM)

You gotta be kidding me.

I was 100% against the financial bailout.  And I'm 100% against the auto bailout.

Iy is NOT the function of government to cover for companies that make disastrous decisions and cannot compete in the marketplace.  I will support the government giving subsistence assistance to the less fortunate, at least to some degree while they get on their feet.  I'll be damned if I'll pay for some three piece suit's multimillion dollar bonus while his company cheats its investors and sells fraudulent loans.  Or for that matter, sells cars that cannot compete in the marketplace.

Teh amazing thing to me is that Congress clearly has no idea what they're doing, yet refuses to bring in someone who does.  The automakers made a big show of how many jobs would be lost if they didn't get emergency funding, and Congress caved.  They have NO requirements for the jobs being retained is assistance is made.  They have no clue how the companies could return to profitability, and what steps should be taken (hint - it will involve shedding a lot of the jobs that the carmakers claim will be lost of they don't get our money).

Finally, the bailouts are NOT using free money.  They will be paid for in the future by either raising taxes or by devaluing the dollar.  I don't want to pay either price.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/13/2008 2:50:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Yeah, I do.

Forgive me though if I don't jump on the "Bush was one of the greatest Presidents of all time" bandwagon.


Why would you need to be forgiven?

quote:


Something Republicans are already trying to trot out while Bush's approval ratings are practically non-existent.

The same way a crappy 'B' movie actor became President and now we are told he saved the world from certain destruction.

I'm willing to acknowledge he has had successes but those successes don't erase the many, many mistakes and overall incompetence.


Never said they did. The ball was not hit way out there in left field you know.




popeye1250 -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/13/2008 3:54:52 PM)

It's very odd that some people would think that working class people making a good week's pay is a "bad" thing.
If you were a Doctor or lawyer wouldn't you want to see your clients making a good salary so that they were able to pay your bill?
I don't see how it's "bad" that a working man or woman makes enough money weekly to support their families, save and invest some and have some left over.
And you can't do those things on $10 or $15 an hour.
Working people's pay needs to start going up again!
The muckey-mucks have stolen unbelievable amounts of money in the last eight years! You know, "the smart people." The ones who have gotten this country into the mess it's in right now.
They pay their caddies and chaueffers more than $28 an hour but try to blame this mess on working people?




LookieNoNookie -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/13/2008 4:50:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

at the Repubs who are willing to completely screw the whole country so they can bust the UAW and drive more manufacturing jobs to the foreign carmakers who have plants in Tennessee (Toyota, VW), South Carolina (BMW), Alabama (Mercedes-Benz), Georgia (Kia), Kentucky (Toyota) Mississippi (Toyota), and Honda had plants everywhere.

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/11/republicans-ask-workers-to-give-but-not-small-businessmen-or-bond-holders/

That's what it's all about. Union-busting and kissing foreign corporate ass. They don't give a shit about the millions who indirectly rely on the Big Three for their jobs. The suppliers, the banks that fund the suppliers, the people who work for the suppliers, the grocers and doctors and mechanics and hair cutters who serve the people who work for the suppliers. No, they could give a shit about the country.


The Republicans asked for one very simple thing...a 3 word codicil to the proposal that would insure that the UAW would lower costs by a specific amount.

Ron Gettlefinger wasn't willing to do that.

Fine.

This is America...he has that right.

The Republicans (not bought and paid for by the unions...surely bought and paid for by others...but not by the unions) asked that their investment (yours and mine) would be paid back.

That requires that the product can be sold for more than it costs to produce it.

According to even the Democrats own documentation...this loan...and all previous loans discussed couldn't guarantee that

The Republican Congress simply asked that the one group that could insure that...the unions...make enough concessions (such as not requiring GM or FORD to continue hiring 2 janitors for 1 janitors work solely because 1 janitorial staff isn't allowed by union rules to handle sanitary paper...i.e., TP) that over a long course of concessions....enough dreck could be removed to even ALLOW GM to make a profit.

With executives willingly taking $1.00 a year, and Gettlefinger just 17 days ago standing in front of all 3 networks, CNN and MSNBC stating unequivocally "WE WILL NOT OFFER ANY CONCESSIONS"....while their employers were literally gasping for air.....I don't think it's unclear where the problem is.




Lorr47 -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/13/2008 5:38:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

It's very odd that some people would think that working class people making a good week's pay is a "bad" thing.
If you were a Doctor or lawyer wouldn't you want to see your clients making a good salary so that they were able to pay your bill?
I don't see how it's "bad" that a working man or woman makes enough money weekly to support their families, save and invest some and have some left over.
And you can't do those things on $10 or $15 an hour.
Working people's pay needs to start going up again!
The muckey-mucks have stolen unbelievable amounts of money in the last eight years! You know, "the smart people." The ones who have gotten this country into the mess it's in right now.
They pay their caddies and chaueffers more than $28 an hour but try to blame this mess on working people?


Well said.




elegantalexis -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/13/2008 6:08:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


edited to add, it wouldnt hurt to cut back on some of the sillier gov regs. I mean really - do you need a light to go on if your tire is getting low? And does it really help if they cant get the things to work right anyway?


Yea, who needs Onstar, a DVD player, satellite radio and a 6 disc CD player when a basic car with AC, heat and a good radio is needed.  I don't even like satellite!




corysub -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/13/2008 6:27:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae

Girl is far from being disgusted.
Honestly the big three did it to themselves. Priced themselves right out of the market, Union heads only really care about the union dues that they receive and each time the company shows a profit the UAW decides that its time to go on strike.
Awww, poor babies. Did it to themselves.




Did the unions force GM to produce 8 different Escalade models that won`t sell during 4 dollar gas times?

No one is selling cars right now.Every brand,even imports are down.

700 billion for bankers (who produce nothing)with no accounting and we can`t drum up a 14 bil. bridge loan for Detroit?

Something`s a miss.

To put things into perspective,we throw 14 billion dollars down a rat hole every month,in Iraq.

We can`t get that much to help out the big three?

~~~~~~~~~~

We could easily fall into an economic depression,if Detroit fails.

There`s an estimated 16 million more home foreclosures to come in the next two years.

Letting Detroit fail would only add to that.

I`m still quite amassed at the lackadaisical attitudes concerning out economic future.As if folks were some how immune to job loss,business loss,home loss,retirement savings loss,etc.

Dosen`t everyone have to eat,wear clothes,stay warm and dry?


Bankruptcy should be allowed to happen.  The companies should restructure their business under bankruptcy protection, renogotiate union contracts, cut benefits the way all of us have seen companies cut benefits, and
the government should stay clear of designing cars!
A girl has a lot of common sense.  Today's problem facing the big three is not due to the current economic slump. These companies having been making terrible cars, have dealerships with terrible mechanical skills in repairs or just have not seemed to care.  The Japanese cars have been better styled have don't have the mechanical problems faced by buyers of American made cars.  Things have gotten better but these companies having screwed up their business for decades.  And they have had help in this regard!   The unions demanded and received wage and benefit packages that made competition with foreign makers even more difficult.  How many blue collar workers do you know have a package of wages and benefits that totals over $70 an hour!  How many blue collar workers do you know have a "job bank" where if they are laid off they sit in a cafeteria and get 95% of their wages??  How many blue collar workers do you know can retire at 58 years of age!!!!!!!   Gimme a break...the unions have done what they always do when they feel they can run over companies...they destroy those companies.  The steel workers did that in Pittsburgh and steel and shipbuilding moved to Japan and Korea.   The dock workers did that in NYC and the docks closed and moved to Baltimore or across the river to New Jersey.  The NYC printers union went on strike after strike and you no longer have papers like the Brooklyn Eagle, The Herald Tribune, The Journal American, The Long Island Press, The Daily Mirror...and on....all closed!  

The auto industry has also been strangled by a "green" Congress that even in todays depression like economy insists that any package be GREEN....so that Pelosi can "save the planet"..  Americans can't save their jobs and the democrat leadership wants to save the friggin planet.  These insane politicians on the left are infected with severe Algoreitis....and byy into the "we are destroying the planet stupidity" with MANDATES for milage on cars, electric cars, and on and on.  No where else in the world are governments desiging the auto's to be made by their companies for consumers who will not buy them.  Who the hell has the money these days to replace their internal combustion engine care .... ?:?  We should be drilling for oil and building nuclear plants...but Noooooo, Pelosi wants to save the planet and so the hippies of the 60's and their kids march with nostalgic glee in lock-step.

The fault of today's auto industry problem cannot be cured by $14 billion.  If you belive that..lets play some poker.
The industry should be merged..or at least Chrysler and GM.., a sabatical should be declared on auto mileage requirements, and the union should give back some of that pay package. 
Lehman wasn't bailed out...IndyMac wasn't bailed out, Bear, Stearns wasn't bailed out...and these companies should not be given a dime of taxpayer money without the taxpayers being assured that Congress is going to be responsible in how the money is used.




auburnvixen -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/13/2008 6:49:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

You gotta be kidding me.

I was 100% against the financial bailout.  And I'm 100% against the auto bailout.

It is NOT the function of government to cover for companies that make disastrous decisions and cannot compete in the marketplace.  I will support the government giving subsistence assistance to the less fortunate, at least to some degree while they get on their feet.  I'll be damned if I'll pay for some three piece suit's multimillion dollar bonus while his company cheats its investors and sells fraudulent loans.  Or for that matter, sells cars that cannot compete in the marketplace.

The amazing thing to me is that Congress clearly has no idea what they're doing, yet refuses to bring in someone who does.  The automakers made a big show of how many jobs would be lost if they didn't get emergency funding, and Congress caved.  They have NO requirements for the jobs being retained is assistance is made.  They have no clue how the companies could return to profitability, and what steps should be taken (hint - it will involve shedding a lot of the jobs that the carmakers claim will be lost of they don't get our money).

Finally, the bailouts are NOT using free money.  They will be paid for in the future by either raising taxes or by devaluing the dollar.  I don't want to pay either price.


[sm=agree.gif]


^^^^^ Standing Ovation ^^^^^




Vendaval -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/13/2008 6:52:54 PM)

I find it interesting how many people posting here are very anti-union.  Several of my family members were union but not specifically UAW as we are mostly on the West Coast.  The union was a benefit to the working people during their working years and in retirement too.




thornhappy -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/13/2008 7:43:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elegantalexis

Yea, who needs Onstar, a DVD player, satellite radio and a 6 disc CD player when a basic car with AC, heat and a good radio is needed.  I don't even like satellite!

I'll take the 6 CD player (great for road trips and usually includes a much better sound system.) Oh yeah, and the 6 way driver's seat (makes things much happier for my aftermarket neck.

There are basic cars available; all the features above come with upgrade packages.  I've even rented compact American cars with manual mirrors and crank windows (and I'm talking within the last year.)  Manual mirrors are a major irritation with a rental car, since it's very difficult to adjust the right side mirror when you're underway; and since you're not familiar with the model, it takes a bit of tweaking to dial them in.  Just the thing for LA traffic.

thornhappy




MzMia -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/13/2008 8:48:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

It's very odd that some people would think that working class people making a good week's pay is a "bad" thing.
If you were a Doctor or lawyer wouldn't you want to see your clients making a good salary so that they were able to pay your bill?
I don't see how it's "bad" that a working man or woman makes enough money weekly to support their families, save and invest some and have some left over.
And you can't do those things on $10 or $15 an hour.
Working people's pay needs to start going up again!
The muckey-mucks have stolen unbelievable amounts of money in the last eight years! You know, "the smart people." The ones who have gotten this country into the mess it's in right now.
They pay their caddies and chaueffers more than $28 an hour but try to blame this mess on working people?


Damn Popeye, great post!
Have you ever heard of crabs in a barrel, that want to drag each other down?
Instead of trying to crawl out of the barrel?

Many people have the crabs in a barrel mentality.




celticlord2112 -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/13/2008 9:09:18 PM)

quote:

It's very odd that some people would think that working class people making a good week's pay is a "bad" thing.

It's only bad if it's more than what the market will bear.

It's only bad if it makes the worker's output to costly to sell in a competitive market.

And when it's bad, it's bad for everyone.




MzMia -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/13/2008 10:10:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Why have so many forgotten that the labor movement in the U.S. is largely responsible for creating the middle class in this country? Many bled and died so that others could have a decent standard of living.

The UAW is not opposed to taking cuts if it means saving their jobs and the industry.It's a complex situation which requires everyone to share the pain. However, imo, it is the management of the big 3 which is most culpable for the mess we are in. They have behaved with arrogance and greed, counting on the government ( read tax payers ) to not allow them to fail. The CEOs of all three need to go, without golden parachutes.


So many wonderful posts here!
I could highlight about 5.

Many HAVE forgotten that the labor movement lifted many of the lower class into
the middle class!
From many of these posts, I see many don't have that clue by 4.
I also like Hippie's recommendation that the Union buy out Ford or GM!




TheUtopian -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/14/2008 12:38:26 AM)

quote:


Over the last couple of weeks, I've been fascinated to see how each day's disastrous economic news has failed to knock the stock market off the tracks. No matter how bad the news, the market  still manages to rally and finish up almost every day. Investors seem to have "priced in" the bad news; they already expect it to be bad, and refuse to let it worsen their analysis of the market. I view this investor confidence as a fairly strong indicator that the market may indeed have bottomed, or is at least in the process of bottoming.



The market / indexes ---  Haven't even begun to touch bottom, homie. Just wait till all the malls and strip malls start to become vacant and America's commercial real-estate sector starts to fold.  You can bet that things will begin to get very interesting by mid Febuary.

Anyways....With the Nikkei, you have what's known as the ''Japanese stock purchasing authority'' - which uses central banking/treasury department money to purchase stock during a drown-draft of a market session. In America, with its indexes, you basically have the same in '' The plunge protection team '' or more affectionately known as '' The president's working group on financial markets. ''

These pseudo-government or government entities---or whatever you wanna call them---artificially inflate/re-inflate the market by purchasing stocks---during the session or at the very end--- to avoid a mass sell off. It just a psychological ploy - before they're forced to throw the circuit breaker. [;)]

We had a pretty good market prediction thread at the very beginning of last year that we'll resurrect a few days after this coming new year for upcoming new predictions.

My early bet is that before the second quarter of 2009 ends, we'll have seen the Dow slip below 6500. But I gota warn ya....I'm hearing guys on the radio throw numbers out like 4700 - Imagine what the 401k's will look like then [:D]

A commentator on the radio by the name of  ''Gerald Celente '' has said that the summer of 2009 will be fondly remembered as the '' Summer of Hell '' ----That's his prediction.






- R




popeye1250 -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/14/2008 12:48:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

It's very odd that some people would think that working class people making a good week's pay is a "bad" thing.

It's only bad if it's more than what the market will bear.

It's only bad if it makes the worker's output to costly to sell in a competitive market.

And when it's bad, it's bad for everyone.



CL, tell it to the Armies of Lawyers out there who still think they're worth $200 per hour.
How much of our Taxdollars do they get?
Tell it to the stockbrokers and bankers who have 50 people lined up to take their jobs should they mess up.
I'm hearing a lot of "uss against them" but not much "us" in here.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/14/2008 12:51:19 AM)

Either here or on B.com I guessed that the DJIA would end up at around 5000 at the bottom.

Utopian is right about the commercial real estate. We haven't seen that sector do what it's going to do. I live in one of those high-end PRIZM zip codes, and strip mall and shopping center vacancies are getting close to about 20% is my estimate. A Media Play store went under about 8 or 9 months ago. A K-Mart went down. A whole lot of small storefronts have gone vacant. My beloved Natural Foods Marketplace (local owned; good folks) had to fold up shop and open a much smaller place in N. GA.  Vacancies are increasing in the small office parks, too, the ones where dentists and accountants and insurance people have their offices.

It's gonna get really bad.




popeye1250 -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/14/2008 1:03:59 AM)

Hippie, they must be moving to Myrtle Beach because they're opening storefronts here!
About a mile away in the last 3 months a Tax Accountant, Bakery, Real Estate office, a Dollar Store, a Karate school, and a few other things opened.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/14/2008 1:21:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Hippie, they must be moving to Myrtle Beach because they're opening storefronts here!
About a mile away in the last 3 months a Tax Accountant, Bakery, Real Estate office, a Dollar Store, a Karate school, and a few other things opened.
You might be seeing people "cashing out", you know, dropping out with some money so they can have their own businesses and not work for a big company or whatever. My brother's looking to do that, except he doesn't work for anyone. He made his nut fixing calculators and IBM typewriters back before anyone had computers, in DC. All those government adding machines... he hit a gold mine.

That's my guess. I haven't been to Myrtle Beach since around 77 or so. I'm sure it's a bit different.




TheUtopian -> RE: I am so disgusted... (12/14/2008 2:38:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Hippie, they must be moving to Myrtle Beach because they're opening storefronts here!
About a mile away in the last 3 months a Tax Accountant, Bakery, Real Estate office, a Dollar Store, a Karate school, and a few other things opened.
You might be seeing people "cashing out", you know, dropping out with some money so they can have their own businesses and not work for a big company or whatever. My brother's looking to do that, except he doesn't work for anyone. He made his nut fixing calculators and IBM typewriters back before anyone had computers, in DC. All those government adding machines... he hit a gold mine.

That's my guess. I haven't been to Myrtle Beach since around 77 or so. I'm sure it's a bit different.



HAR! 

I'm willing to wager anyone here that for every new store-front lease signed for a new entrepreneurial adventure in South Carolina - eight to twelve existing pursuits will have perished/cease to exist in places like California.

But lemme emphasize one thing.....Popeye is on the money in what I think he is saying regards the '' individual '' or the new ''mom and pop'' type enterprises/entrepreneurial opportunities that will arise in the near-term future.

For the most part, sole proprietorship's and ''mom and pop'' type operations are not the entities that hold lease contracts with America's large-scale, multi-story shopping malls or your typical new suburban strip malls - Corporate America is. And that's who's falling apart right now. The further deteriorating economic climate will not in any way be conducive for these small to medium size retailers survival. Their inner-workings/ bureaucratic operational structure at management level is not designed thrive on low volume and ulta-slim gross profit margins.

Personally, I see this as a good thing.... America will thrive once again after its eventually returned to single entrepreneurial pursuits, farmers, inventors, sole proprietorships and people-powered co-ops - After all... that's what led it to greatness from the beginning.


I do not welcome the balkanization of America - But I do welcome balkanization of its government. [:D]








- R




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