RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype

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Sanity -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 4:00:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thornhappy His annoyance to us after Desert Storm was mostly taking pot shots at us when we flew the borders of the "no fly zone". (Seems like Desert Storm would be good enough an ass-stomping after the Stark attack.) Taking "pot shots" at us is all the reason we needed to take the bastard out. We had a cease fire agreement with him, and he broke it. quote: Just before OIF, we started to systematically destroy the infrastructure of their SAM systems. Could that be because he was taking pot shots at us? quote: We had no intent to follow the UN resolutions. We geared up well before the start of the war. Had he fulfilled his end of the cease fire agreement we would have fulfilled ours. Even that peace loving hillbilly Bubba Clinton couldn't get along with that bloodthirsty fool. quote: Saddam was a paper tiger. He was no threat to the US, and had nothing left to threaten the region with. This was a great example of "red-on-red" deception; our enemy was blustering and talking up his bad-assedness to fend off attacks from other regional enemies. It's true that he tried to bluff everyone into thinking he had WMDs, I'll give you that point. quote: (Sources with the country were very few due to the tight hold he had on his populace.) I'll also give you that one. (And there was indeed no way that the Iraqi people could ever have liberated themselves for that same reason). quote: His mistake was thinking we wouldn't go after him again. Even though he was repeatedly warned in a very direct manner. quote: Reportedly he was looking for a last-minute negotiation which was simply too late. That's right, after it was too late. It's good the see we're in so much agreement! quote: I was very surprised to see all the quotes from so much of the "liberal mainstream media". So the infamous liberal media is ok to quote as long as it supports your views, I guess. You're free to quote news sources too, you know. The only curious thing here is, why are you trying to spin it into something negative? It seems like you of all people would appreciate people like slavegirljoy posting facts, and then backing them up with hard credible links. Are there times when facts bother you? quote: Each and every one of the excuses we used to go to war could be, and are said, about countries like North Korea, Somalia, and the Sudan. We used to say even worse about China and the old Soviet Union. It's no wonder that countries try to get nukes (Pakistan, anyone? Proliferator of choice?); that seems to be the only thing that holds us off. thornhappy If we were any nicer, we would have been slaves to some bloody dictator by now. Or dead.

SilverMark -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 4:23:20 AM)
Sanity.....answer one question for me....Was the cost of American lives worth the removal of Saddam?

MrRodgers -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 5:18:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia If anyone ever reads all this, please give me a synopsis of the post. Thanks in advance. [;)] I am not reading the whole thing becasue I don't need to and most don't. The reason is that yes, yes, yes ALL of it, Clinton, the BUSHES and most of the rest is essentially true and I still don't care. These argument now takes two tracks 1) justification for going into Iraq but forgets 2) How we handled victory. First Cheney in 1996 AFTER the assessment from most of this post above... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NqjS402-Cs&feature=related Now we are dealing with what WE did AFTER Saddam fell. That's why I have been writing that the 'Iraq war' is over and has been over for some time. If we had only wanted to remove Saddam we'd have been out years ago but we did a whole lot more. WE fired 50,000 bureaucrats, all of the Baathist politcols, teachers and staff. We fired the Iraqi police forces. We created a form of anarchy. We asked for loyal militias promising to pay them and when they formed....didn't The SURGE was ONLY us asking again...they formed on both sides and we paid both sides. ($300/month per man up from $100) We could have started writing checks in 2004. How many lives could have been saved ? It is the victory that has that 60% wondering just how incompetant any occupation could possibly be...and now we know. The CPA rounded up mostly innocent Iraqi youth, jailed, tortured and otherwise humiliated many. They went in understanding and came out...our sworn enemies. All of this gives ammo to the idea that we want (civil) war, we want both sides to fight each other and staying until 2010 or 2011 means we will always be playing favorites that follow our policies.

HunterS -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 5:57:14 AM)
quote: Even that peace loving hillbilly Bubba Clinton couldn't get along with that bloodthirsty fool. It would appear from your post that being "peace loving" is a negative attribute. It makes the "war mongering" post you fill this board with make so much more sense. Thank you for your candor. H.

HunterS -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 6:04:11 AM)
quote: Taking "pot shots" at us is all the reason we needed to take the bastard out. We had a cease fire agreement with him, and he broke it. By this line of reasoning you would be alright with Castro Nuking Washington DC. for all the assassination attemps we have made on him. H.

Sanity -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 6:42:09 AM)
Absolutely. Read up on the horrors that went on inside of Iraq under Saddam Hussein sometime - that history alone was reason enough. A life is a life, isn't it? Why should his lifelong torture and killing spree have been acceptable to anyone, let alone you. The man was a mass murderer with absolutely no conscience, and he was our sworn enemy. And he had two sons who were fully capable of carrying on for him after he was gone. As thornhappy pointed out, Saddam was at least bluffing that he had WMD capability, and he had used them previously on Iranians and on his own people so he clearly had the knowledge, means and the apparatus to reacquire them, not to mention all his personal private oil wealth and all the "friends" that it bought for him. And he was taking pot shots at our boys almost every day... So, yes, absolutely - there is very little question, and that's why Congress backed the President by a margin of about 99% regarding the decision to go in, and that's why Bill Clinton gave the speeches he did about Saddam Hussein. As slavegirljoy has so dutifully pointed out, it's only the revisionist nonsense that makes people forget or even completely ignore exactly how evil Saddam Hussein truly was, and what kind of a threat he was to his own people and to the entire world.. quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark Sanity.....answer one question for me....Was the cost of American lives worth the removal of Saddam?

HunterS -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 7:02:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Absolutely. Read up on the horrors that went on inside of Iraq under Saddam Hussein sometime - that history alone was reason enough. A life is a life, isn't it? Why should his lifelong killing spree have been acceptable to anyone, let alone you. The man was a mass murderer with absolutely no conscience, and he was our sworn enemy. And he had two sons who were fully capable of carrying on for him after he was gone. As thornhappy pointed out, Saddam was at least bluffing that he had WMD capability, and he had used them previously on Iranians and on his own people so he clearly had the knowledge, means and the apparatus to reacquire them, not to mention all his personal private oil wealth and all the "friends" that it bought for him. And he was taking pot shots at our boys almost every day... So, yes, absolutely - there is very little question, and that's why Congress backed the President by a margin of about 99% regarding the decision to go in, and that's why Bill Clinton gave the speeches he did about Saddam Hussein. As slavegirljoy has so dutifully pointed out, it's only the revisionist nonsense that makes people forget or even completely ignore exactly how evil Saddam Hussein truly was, and what kind of a threat he was to his own people and to the entire world.. quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark Sanity.....answer one question for me....Was the cost of American lives worth the removal of Saddam? Your post makes it quite clear that you approve of others dying for your rhetoric but you yourself have chosen not to do so. Obviously others peoples lives are more expendable than your own. Your candor is to be commended. H.

MrRodgers -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 7:07:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Absolutely. Read up on the horrors that went on inside of Iraq under Saddam Hussein sometime - that history alone was reason enough. As thornhappy pointed out, Saddam was at least bluffing that he had WMD capability, and he had used them previously on Iranians and on his own people so he clearly had the knowledge, means and the apparatus to reacquire them, not to mention all his personal private oil wealth. A life is a life, isn't it? Why should his lifelong killing spree have been acceptable to anyone, let alone you. The man was a mass murderer with no absolutely conscience, and he was our sworn enemy. And he had two sons who were fully capable of carrying on for him after he was gone. And he was taking pot shots at our boys almost every day... So, absolutely - there is very little question, and that's why Congress backed the President by a margin of about 99% regarding the decision to go in. As slavegirljoy has so dutifully pointed out, it's only the revisionist nonsense that makes people forget or even completely ignore exactly how evil Saddam Hussein truly was. quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark Sanity.....answer one question for me....Was the cost of American lives worth the removal of Saddam? Far too easy to write when it obvioulsy means we should be invading and should have been...against evil all over the world. N. Korea Cuba Sri Lanka Burma Tibet For that matter...how about China ? 90,000 riots a year. Arbitrary jailings and torture, all kinds of govt. terror there yet what ? 'We' make a very good profit from the Chinese 'gulag' that we do not want to disturb. Our govt. their banker sponsors and the rest of the world's aristocracy didn't and still don't give a flying fuck about evil. Follow the money and their fears and you could possibly predict the next war. We went into Iraq to forbid Saddam from creating a Mid East oil exchange in Euros. That would have precipitated a free fall in the dollar making oil and most all of our imports much more expenive. We will invade Iran for the same reason...NOT because of their nuclear intentions but because of the same possibilities of a new oil exchange. Iran started on nukes under the Shah BTW and sure wasn't a problem back then. The world i.e., the bankers weren't upset about Pakistan getting nukes. The only fear the real power has is that the oil fields would be radio-active with any mid east nuclear blast or exchange.

SilverMark -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 7:17:48 AM)
How is that we benefited from the lives spent in this pursuit? Is this to be our course of action from now on? Do you believe that because another country has issues within it's on boarders we should intervene? Have we made the lives of the ordinary Iraqi citizen better?...If they revert to a dictatorship do we return? What about Georgie's axis of evil? Do we act in each of those countries as we have in Iraq?

HunterS -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 7:20:54 AM)
quote: Far too easy to write when it obvioulsy means we should be invading and should have been...against evil all over the world. N. Korea Cuba Sri Lanka Burma Tibet While I do not disagree with your admonition to"follow the money" I would question your depiction of Cuba as "evil" H.

MrRodgers -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 7:27:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HunterS quote: Far too easy to write when it obvioulsy means we should be invading and should have been...against evil all over the world. N. Korea Cuba Sri Lanka Burma Tibet While I do not disagree with your admonition to"follow the money" I would question your depiction of Cuba as "evil" H. Well admittedly, Cuba may be the most benign but only because it is an island very limited in land mass (agriculture) living off the handouts of others and doesn't represent a geopolitical threat. It still remains a communist police state and is terror for quite a few.

Sanity -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 7:49:54 AM)
Another thing that should be said about the Democratization of Iraq is that, under Saddam Hussein Iraq was the most destabilizing factor in the entire Middle East. Osama Bin Laden was only a symptom, instability was the disease and bringing stability to the region is the cure. Helping to make the Middle East a more stable and prosperous, peaceful place was probably the best way to stop future massive terrorist attacks and therefore save countless lives.

CreativeDominant -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 8:09:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HunterS quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant Ahhhhhhhhhhh...sort of like the soldiers the left always manages to find who have nothing but bad to say about the military and the war and Bush...like the soldier from Colorado who "allegedly" deserted because he just couldn't "fight a war he did not support". Funny...I don't remember the contract I signed with the U.S. having that clause about being able to walk away from a contract you signed that states specifically that you might actually be called upon to do what the military is for...fight. ~gasp~ Are you saying that you have no moral obligation to do what you feel is right just because you signed a contract? This must mean that you do not approve of divorce. Because you sign a contract to be married "till death do us part" I have a moral obligation to disobey an illegal order. The specifics of what an illegal order is have been laid out for a long time. One thing that is understood by most people is that the employee himself does not get to decide for themselves what is illegal. If he chooses to do so, then he pays the consequences...either being fired or, in the case of the military, brought to trial. As for the morality, if the "soldier" has a problem with the morality of war...and believe, I get the idea that it can be argued that NO war is moral...then he probably should not have signed up for a job with a "company" whose primary job, whose training...even in the supportive groups...revolves around war. quote: The soldiers who have refused to fight...at least the ones I have read about...had already done a tour and decided based on their personal experience that what they were doing was tantamount to a "war crime". And as I noted above, the employee does not get to dictate the terms of his employment. He can choose to do so and then, if he has the guts to back his decision, he will face military trial. Funny how many of those soldiers that you've read about...as have I...chose the coward's way...they ran. Where was the conviction behind their moral stand? quote: When you were in the military,if you were told to do something that you felt was a "war crime" would you have done it because you had signed a contract or would you have taken a shot at a little brig time to keep faith with your conscience? If I felt the order was illegal, then I would have followed the chain of command. If the chain of command was in compliance with the order, then yes, I would have faced the consequences of deciding to disobey. I've done that my entire life...hasn't made it easy but it's been worth it. quote: Or the photographs taken inside of a military prison showing...what? 5, 6, 7? soldiers clearly committing crimes. How many people that were not in the photograph were necessary for that to occure? I am sure you are aware of the term "chain of command". That did not occure in a vaccum. Well aware. As I am sure you are aware, that particular chain was investigated and the soldiers responsible for the actions as well as those above them responsible for their actions were brought to trial. quote: By the way, where are all those photographs of the soldiers...the vast majority...doing things right? I guess those got lost somewhere, eh? Not at all. They are on the six o'clock news with the rest of the propaganda that the administration is using to pimp this war. On FOX maybe...certainly not on ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC. At least not without the contradictions inherent in their coverage of the war. Your statement about them "pimping" for the government gives a clearer view of your own point of view. I'll be back to answer the rest. Work is calling.

HunterS -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 8:10:55 AM)
quote: Well admittedly, Cuba may be the most benign but only because it is an island very limited in land mass (agriculture) living off the handouts of others and doesn't represent a geopolitical threat. It still remains a communist police state and is terror for quite a few. It might interest you to know that Cuba is nearly as large as N. Korea and almost twice the size of Sri lanka which is also an island. Cuba makes a pretty good profit from its nickle exports and its pharmaceutical industry. It has the finest medical care in the world with the lowest patient to doctor ratio in the world. They even offered the U.S. a hospital ship fully staffed with doctors and medicine in the aftermath of hurricain Katrina...which the U.S. refused. It is in the process of developing its rather extensive oil reserves. As for living off of "handouts" I am at a loss to understand this characterization. The rhetoric of "communist police state" is somewhat frayed since most everyone in Cuba has a gun(and I do not mean saturday night specials) so if they were so unhappy with Castro why do they not just revolt. The facts are that Cuba has more freedom today than at anytime in its history. The problems with its economy are the direct result of U.S. efforts. H.

celticlord2112 -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 8:17:31 AM)
quote: When you were in the military,if you were told to do something that you felt was a "war crime" would you have done it because you had signed a contract or would you have taken a shot at a little brig time to keep faith with your conscience? Articles 90-92 of the UCMJ make it an offense to disobey only "lawful" orders of superiors. If an order amounts to a war crime, it is necessarily an unlawful order, and, as such, not only can be disobeyed, but should be disobeyed--the existence of such an order is not a defense to the personnel committing the actual "war crime" act itself. "Just following orders" is not a valid defense under the UCMJ.

HunterS -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 8:18:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Another thing that should be said about the Democratization of Iraq is that, under Saddam Hussein Iraq was the most destabilizing factor in the entire Middle East. Osama Bin Laden was only a symptom, instability was the disease and bringing stability to the region is the cure. Helping to make the Middle East a more stable and prosperous, peaceful place was probably the best way to stop future massive terrorist attacks and therefore save countless lives. ROFLMAO

SilverMark -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 8:32:08 AM)
Not to pick on you Sanity, but for you to say that Iraq was worth the loss of life may be the most preposterous thing I have read from you. From the safety of Idaho arguing policy decisions on lesser subjects I give you all your due credit for the research you do, the points you make and your intelligence. On this issue, you are gravely mistaken and your words seem callous and hollow.

stella41b -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 8:46:42 AM)
Some questions... Does anybody know the exact nature and facts about Saddam's war crimes, i.e. the crimes he has been convicted of in an internationally recognized court of law? What are they? Has anybody got any evidence of any link between Saddam Hussein or Iraq and any international terrorist organization? How come the US forces haven't taken any action against Saudi Arabia given Al Qaeda's links with the holy city of Al Madina, or Mecca? How many of those 'terrorists' responsible for 9/11 have been brought to justice? How come there was no mention in the OP of Margaret Thatcher, who started the conflict with Saddam Hussein in Iraq?

HunterS -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 9:19:26 AM)
quote: I have a moral obligation to disobey an illegal order. The specifics of what an illegal order is have been laid out for a long time. One thing that is understood by most people is that the employee himself does not get to decide for themselves what is illegal. If he chooses to do so, then he pays the consequences...either being fired or, in the case of the military, brought to trial. As for the morality, if the "soldier" has a problem with the morality of war...and believe, I get the idea that it can be argued that NO war is moral...then he probably should not have signed up for a job with a "company" whose primary job, whose training...even in the supportive groups...revolves around war. The oath that one takes upon entry into the military is to protect the U.S. against all enemies both foriegn and domestic. If the thing being done does not conform to that contract then the contract is null and void irrespective of what the military codifies as an illegal order. quote: And as I noted above, the employee does not get to dictate the terms of his employment. He can choose to do so and then, if he has the guts to back his decision, he will face military trial. Funny how many of those soldiers that you've read about...as have I...chose the coward's way...they ran. Where was the conviction behind their moral stand? That some individuals chose not to subject themselves to a court martial and the resulting penalities somehow compels you to call them cowards. Why is a man a coward who does what he feels is right? quote: If I felt the order was illegal, then I would have followed the chain of command. If the chain of command was in compliance with the order, then yes, I would have faced the consequences of deciding to disobey. I've done that my entire life...hasn't made it easy but it's been worth it. That is you...why do you expect everyone else to act as you would? quote: How many people that were not in the photograph were necessary for that to occure? I am sure you are aware of the term "chain of command". That did not occure in a vaccum. quote: Well aware. As I am sure you are aware, that particular chain was investigated and the soldiers responsible for the actions as well as those above them responsible for their actions were brought to trial. Really???perhaps you would be willing to post a list of who went to prison besides a few low ranking enlisted personel. quote: By the way, where are all those photographs of the soldiers...the vast majority...doing things right? I guess those got lost somewhere, eh? Not at all. They are on the six o'clock news with the rest of the propaganda that the administration is using to pimp this war. quote: On FOX maybe...certainly not on ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC. At least not without the contradictions inherent in their coverage of the war. Your statement about them "pimping" for the government gives a clearer view of your own point of view. All of the networks carry the "pimp" clips of soldiers giving candy to kids and building hospitals and schools. If you were to watch something besides "faux news" you would see it. If there are any of my views that you feel are incomplete or unclear please feel free to ask for a clarification. The government and the pimps at most all of the networks have been in lock step with this war of aggression and aggrandizement. I'll be back to answer the rest. Work is calling.

Sanity -> RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype (12/18/2008 11:22:09 AM)
So honest people cannot disagree? What if I feel you're being "preposterous" "callous and hollow" "mis-guided, if not a bit worse" for your opinions that apparently favor Saddam Hussein's Baathist regime and all the despicable acts that they carried out and that they would have carried out had we not stopped them. Actually, I don't feel that way, I just think we disagree on the best way to keep the peace - and I would hope you would show at least some repect for my legitimate point of view, especially since you have asked for me to share it with you. quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark Not to pick on you Sanity, but for you to say that Iraq was worth the loss of life may be the most preposterous thing I have read from you. From the safety of Idaho arguing policy decisions on lesser subjects I give you all your due credit for the research you do, the points you make and your intelligence. On this issue, you are gravely mistaken and your words seem callous and hollow. quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark the cost was not worth it!...no American lives are worth what was gained in the war and anyone who thinks that the gains were worth the lives are indeed at least mis-guided, if not a bit worse.

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